bumping the defender before taking a shot

[ysong]

How do you call these plays:

B1 guards A1 near the basket, and maitains his legal guarding position.

a) when contact between A1 and B1 exists, A1 leans toward B1 to create separation before A1 takes a shot.

b)when no contact between A1 and B1, A1 initiates the contact by leaning (or crashing) into B1, before A1 takes a shot.

in both cases, the force is not big enough to knock B1 to the floor, but enough for A1 to gain a split of second uncontested time to make his shot.

c)both A1 and B1 jump up without contact, when still in the air, A1 twists his body to initiates the contact and crashes into B1, before A1 release the shot.


Do you call it offensive fouls on these cases?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by ysong
How do you call these plays:

B1 guards A1 near the basket, and maitains his legal guarding position.

a) when contact between A1 and B1 exists, A1 leans toward B1 to create separation before A1 takes a shot.

b)when no contact between A1 and B1, A1 initiates the contact by leaning (or crashing) into B1, before A1 takes a shot.

in both cases, the force is not big enough to knock B1 to the floor, but enough for A1 to gain a split of second uncontested time to make his shot.

c)both A1 and B1 jump up without contact, when still in the air, A1 twists his body to initiates the contact and crashes into B1, before A1 release the shot.


Do you call it offensive fouls on these cases?

As with most plays we'd need to see it.

You pretty much answered your own question on a) and b) when you said, "But enough for A1 to gain." A fouls is contact that gains and advantage or puts the opponent at a disadvantage.

c) could be a block, a PC, or nothing it depends on how B1 jumped and the release of the shot has no baring unless you are doing NCAA men.

[JRutledge]

If the contact put someone at a disadvantage, then you might have something. If the contact did not take away a good shot or cause the shooter to have a better look, I have nothing. As stated I would have to see it. Getting knocked to the floor is not a prerequisite for a foul. All you have to do is cause space or knock the shooter off stride (cause them to do something they were not already going to do) to have a foul.

Peace

[ysong]

Originally posted by blindzebra

As with most plays we'd need to see it.

You pretty much answered your own question on a) and b) when you said, "But enough for A1 to gain." A fouls is contact that gains and advantage or puts the opponent at a disadvantage.

c) could be a block, a PC, or nothing it depends on how B1 jumped and the release of the shot has no baring unless you are doing NCAA men.

all above scenarios happen frequently, especially a) and b). it is even more so when both A1 and B1 are moving. for some players, it is almost a habitual shooting sequecnce: to bump defender first before take the shot. all of those bumps more or less will create some disavantage on defenders, but how often do you guys call the offensive fouls on those cases? where to draw the line between the incidental contact and the fouls?

Thanks.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by ysong

all above scenarios happen frequently, especially a) and b). it is even more so when both A1 and B1 are moving. for some players, it is almost a habitual shooting sequecnce: to bump defender first before take the shot. all of those bumps more or less will create some disavantage on defenders, but how often do you guys call the offensive fouls on those cases? where to draw the line between the incidental contact and the fouls?

Thanks.

Does the contact go through the defender's torso? In other words do both players go in opposite directions from the contact point? If the defender moves away from the contact, it's a good indication that the offense created space illegally.

If the defender's torso stays at the point of contact, the space created is by the offensive player fading away, which indicates incidental contact.

There is no set way to call this play. You just have to see the whole play and make a judgment.

You also see the play reversed when A1 hit's a spot and starts a fall away jumper and the defender steps up and there is a slight bump, and we have to decide if the contact caused A1 to back up or did they do it on their own.

[OverAndBack]

"He didn't bump you - he rubbed you. And rubbin's racin'."

[ysong]

Originally posted by blindzebra
Does the contact go through the defender's torso? In other words do both players go in opposite directions from the contact point? If the defender moves away from the contact, it's a good indication that the offense created space illegally.

If the defender's torso stays at the point of contact, the space created is by the offensive player fading away, which indicates incidental contact.

There is no set way to call this play. You just have to see the whole play and make a judgment.

You also see the play reversed when A1 hit's a spot and starts a fall away jumper and the defender steps up and there is a slight bump, and we have to decide if the contact caused A1 to back up or did they do it on their own.

Thanks blindzebra for the clarification.

But what if the bump cause the defender fixed to his position (without sending him flying) for a brief instant and therefore B1 is not able to contest A1's ensuing fade away shot? therotically, I still think A1 gets a unfair advantage, but are no-calls more prefered in this case?

Even in the case that the bump does cause B1 step back a little, how often in real games can you "get away" with an offensive foul call without lecturing the couch later on about your call?

Thanks.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by ysong

Thanks blindzebra for the clarification.

But what if the bump cause the defender fixed to his position (without sending him flying) for a brief instant and therefore B1 is not able to contest A1's ensuing fade away shot? therotically, I still think A1 gets a unfair advantage, but are no-calls more prefered in this case?

Even in the case that the bump does cause B1 step back a little, how often in real games can you "get away" with an offensive foul call without lecturing the couch later on about your call?

Thanks.

Like I said, it depends on how you judge it.

It's easy if they chicken wing, ala Jordan, and push away the defender. It's easy if they go through the torso and send the defender backwards.

If it's subtle you have to factor in how your partner is calling it, how physical the game has been, how the players involved have been playing each other, time, score and whatever else you want to throw in there. If it's subtle, is the call going to make the game better? If not it's a no-call.

One thing you should not factor into your call is what will I tell the coach. It's a judgment call not a rule interpretation, so say, "Coach your player created the space." End of explanation.