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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 11:44am
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Bumping the Cutter

Coach here. I want to work with my kids at practice more on defending weakside cutters looking to penetrate the lane as they come ballside, commonly known as bumping the cutter. Since you can't deliberately bump, push, or displace, I could really use your help clarifying what you consider good D and what constitutes a block or push when defending the cutters.

Let's assume A1 has the ball on the right wing and A2 is on the left wing outside the arc. As the defender, B2 would be near or in the lane watching both A1 and A2 while defending A2. As A2 makes his move to cut across the lane, B2 should close the gap, ideally forcing A2 to divert his cut up and away from his intended path.

Do concepts of legal guarding position apply here? Or is it a matter of making sure B2 stays in front of A2's path at all times challenging for the pass with his arm in the passing lane? Lastly, how much contact if any is allowed and what keys do you look for as an official?

Thanks for the help in advance - I want to make sure we teach our kids right.
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 12:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGCougar
Coach here. I want to work with my kids at practice more on defending weakside cutters looking to penetrate the lane as they come ballside, commonly known as bumping the cutter. Since you can't deliberately bump, push, or displace, I could really use your help clarifying what you consider good D and what constitutes a block or push when defending the cutters.

Let's assume A1 has the ball on the right wing and A2 is on the left wing outside the arc. As the defender, B2 would be near or in the lane watching both A1 and A2 while defending A2. As A2 makes his move to cut across the lane, B2 should close the gap, ideally forcing A2 to divert his cut up and away from his intended path.

Do concepts of legal guarding position apply here? Or is it a matter of making sure B2 stays in front of A2's path at all times challenging for the pass with his arm in the passing lane? Lastly, how much contact if any is allowed and what keys do you look for as an official?

Thanks for the help in advance - I want to make sure we teach our kids right.
Coach,

You answered your own question inside your question: Since you can't deliberately bump, push, or displace, I could really use your help clarifying what you consider good D and what constitutes a block or push when defending the cutters. Don't do any of these and your are fine.
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 12:35pm
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Great reply RonRef. Coach, bumping the cutter is not always called a foul, depending on the amount of contact and whether or not it prohibited the offensive player from getting where they want to go. How this kind of contact is called varies greatly depending upon the level and how the governing body wants contact to be interpreted. If I were coaching, I don't think I'd teach this as a defensive fundamental as by rule, it is a foul.
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 12:55pm
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I probably didn't do a good job of asking the questions or setting up the sitch - my bad.

Does the concept of LGP apply here? Cutter is coming across the lane and I want to get in their path, but not necessarily face guarding the cutter. It is possible to even have part of your back to the cutter if you've beaten them to a spot and continue running in front. Are you saying that contact here would then be a foul on the cutter? I've never really seen that called unless it's a blatant two-handed shove.

I'm not advocating deliberate contact defending the cut any more than I'd tell a cutter to knock down a player standing still in their path. But when two players are running toward the ball, one with the intention of catching it and the other with the intention of denying it, some contact will be inevitable. What I'm trying to get a grasp of is this: how can the defender deny a cutter within the rules, forcing the cutter to take an alternate path? And.. In doing so, is any contact at all allowed or overlooked?

Thanks for being patient.
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:00pm
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by PGCougar
I probably didn't do a good job of asking the questions or setting up the sitch - my bad.

Does the concept of LGP apply here? Cutter is coming across the lane and I want to get in their path, but not necessarily face guarding the cutter. It is possible to even have part of your back to the cutter if you've beaten them to a spot and continue running in front. Are you saying that contact here would then be a foul on the cutter? I've never really seen that called unless it's a blatant two-handed shove.

I'm not advocating deliberate contact defending the cut any more than I'd tell a cutter to knock down a player standing still in their path. But when two players are running toward the ball, one with the intention of catching it and the other with the intention of denying it, some contact will be inevitable. What I'm trying to get a grasp of is this: how can the defender deny a cutter within the rules, forcing the cutter to take an alternate path? And.. In doing so, is any contact at all allowed or overlooked?

Thanks for being patient.
Coach,
If you make use of legal screening techniques, you'll be good.
mick
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:09pm
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Coach,

Keep in mind that time and space do not matter when guarding a player with the ball, once the defender has established a LGP the offensive player is responsible for contact even if the defensive player gets to the spot a fraction of a second before the dribbler.

When "bumping a cutter", time and space do matter because you are guarding a player without the ball. The defensive cannot jump in front of the cutter and create contact, he must give time and space to the cutter as you would when setting a screen. If the defensive player
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:11pm
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Coach - if your defender gets there first so that the cutter has to go around them - they're good. If your defender doesn't get there first and initiates contact by actually bumping the cutter - chances are there's gonna be a whistle against your defender.
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Coach,
If you make use of legal screening techniques, you'll be good.
mick
I have to agree. From your original post I was envisioning you teaching your players to bump offensive players as they went across the lane, like Michael Cooper used to get away with bumping Larry Bird. As long as you keep legal screening principles in mind, you'll be good. Something I think of as an official is that every player has the right to their space on the court. When others get into that space, that is when fouls occur, depending advantage/disadvantage and incidental contact. As far as how it is called, again I think it really depends on the level and where you are playing. I know of some assignors that want pretty much all of that off ball contact called, I work for others that say ignore it unless it really affects the play
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:16pm
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As a Coach:I always taught my kids to beat them to the spot, turn them and force them to alter their prefered path and then deny the passing lane.

As a Ref: I would watch for any flagrant attempt by either to gain an advantage thru physical contact.(block or push otherwise incidental)

I think your on the right track but just don't tell officials because by the rules it is a foul....but seldom called.
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Coach,
If you make use of legal screening techniques, you'll be good.
mick
Thanks mick. Appreciate your pointing me to right section. Just read through them.

Two step distance from help position shouldn't be tough to teach, since the defender is off of the cutter and in the direction of the cut to begin with. Trying to get that two step advantange just running alongside will be more difficult however. This must be a difficult judgement to make on your part.

I should rename the thread "screening the cutter."

{edit} Thanks to everyone else as well. That was helpful info.
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Last edited by PGCougar; Tue Sep 26, 2006 at 01:45pm.
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:54pm
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Quote:
I think your on the right track but just don't tell officials because by the rules it is a foul....but seldom called.
Coach, I'm not sure what level of kids you are talking about, If you have any relationship with the governing association you may want to invite one or some of the officials to a practice and have them see what you are asking. By describing it may not be what you are actually asking. It's like rules left to interpretation. I would rather interpretate by seeing rather to possibly or maybe. I would hate to have you come back during the season and alerts us that you lost the game becuase fo this infraction.

The local association will determine if it is a violation or not. IMO
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGCougar
Trying to get that two step advantange just running alongside will be more difficult however. This must be a difficult judgement to make on your part.
Picture the defender and the cutter moving at oblique angles.

And it is not more than two steps, right ?

If your player is running alongside, that player missed the cutter already, yes?
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 01:55pm
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I love the feature at the bottom of the page that shows similar threads. PGCougar, I had a feeling of deja vu about this thread, LOL.

See Bumping the Cutter

Almost 2 years to the day!
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 02:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick
Picture the defender and the cutter moving at oblique angles.

And it is not more than two steps, right ?

If your player is running alongside, that player missed the cutter already, yes?
Well if you only have two steps of course. But on a longer cut, maybe the defender is so much faster he can beat the cutter.

Yah, that's the ticket - he's faster... (ahem)

Sorry, I temporarily switched back to coaching mode and debated you in a stupid manner. I'll behave now sir.
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One says, “This is old, therefore it is good”; the other says, “This is new, therefore it is better.” - W.R. Inge
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Old Tue Sep 26, 2006, 02:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimgolf
I love the feature at the bottom of the page that shows similar threads. PGCougar, I had a feeling of deja vu about this thread, LOL.

See Bumping the Cutter

Almost 2 years to the day!
Wow! How embarrasing is that?

Call me a slow learner.
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