The butt bumping thread

[JetMetFan]

Crouch???

At any rate...what you're dealing with, basically, is displacement. Have I called fouls on players for using their rear end to move someone from one spot to another? Yes, because it's no different than facing the opponent and using your hands to move them. If they're using their backside and you're using yours but no one is moved off their spot there's no advantage gained so no need for a whistle.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Displacement.

Good answer.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Good answer.

One of the best one word answers to use with a coach when they ask "how was that a foul? All he did was box out?". The look on their face is priceless as they try to digest what they've just been told.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

One of the best one word answers to use with a coach when they ask "how was that a foul? All he did was box out?". The look on their face is priceless as they try to digest what they've just been told.

I had one of those this year. A-1 shoots, A-2 uses her body to push B-3 about 6-7 feet at the time of my whistle.

Me (reporting): "Blue, (A-2), pushing."
A-2: "Coach, I don't know what I did wrong!"
Coach A: "What did she do wrong?"
Me: "Displacement, sir."
Coach A: "Did she push with her body or her arms?"
Me: "Body."

The coach had a "but, that's legal!" look in his eye. He called me over at halftime to address it some more. The bottom line is that he's been teaching those kids that you can use your body to "box out." Again, I pushed the word "displacement," and the reply was "Right, I understand that, BUT..."

Uh, no, you don't, sir.

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

Simply using the word isn't going to get a coach to magically understand. If he's been teaching the kids it's ok to move the opponent as long as they have inside position, giving him a new word of the day isn't going to change his mind.

I just go straight to, "coach, boxing out is holding your position, not moving the other guy out of his."

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I had one of those this year. A-1 shoots, A-2 uses her body to push B-3 about 6-7 feet at the time of my whistle.

Me (reporting): "Blue, (A-2), pushing."
A-2: "Coach, I don't know what I did wrong!"
Coach A: "What did she do wrong?"
Me: "Displacement, sir."
Coach A: "Did she push with her body or her arms?"
Me: "Body."

The coach had a "but, that's legal!" look in his eye. He called me over at halftime to address it some more. The bottom line is that he's been teaching those kids that you can use your body to "box out." Again, I pushed the word "displacement," and the reply was "Right, I understand that, BUT..."

Uh, no, you don't, sir.

A veteran official I respect heavily put it this way, "Boxing out is screening, not displacing." I can't think of a more succinct manner than that.

I had a rebounding situation earlier this season in a BV game in which B2 moves his body, butt first, into airborne A2 who was jumping for a rebound. B2 basically undercut A2 by moving into and displacing him.

Tweet.

Push on B2. A ball at the spot.

Kid looks at me with that "what did I do" look.

You moved him.
I blocked him out.
Blocking out is not displacing your opponent.

[OKREF]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

I had a rebounding situation earlier this season in a BV game in which B2 moves his body, butt first, into airborne A2 who was jumping for a rebound. B2 basically undercut A2 by moving into and displacing him.

Tweet.

Push on B2. A ball at the spot.

Kid looks at me with that "what did I do" look.

You moved him.
I blocked him out.
Blocking out is not displacing your opponent.

I had this exact same play. Long rebound, outside player jumps, inside guy moves underneath him and cuts the player coming down. I called a foul. Coach could not understand why it was a foul. Said his player had inside position. I said yes he did, but he moved underneath the other player. He said, thats just blocking out, we had inside position. He just couldn't understand. Next time out he asks me again. I just couldn't make him understand.

[potato]

most of the discussion is related to boxing out & displacement, however would you guys call it as a foul when:

Offense has the ball and is under the rim, Defense is behind him close & arms high sealing off the ball path to the basket. Offense does a pump fake crouch movement & uses the butt's natural motion to give the defender a bump on the belly or crouch (you know some guys love to stick out their butt when pump faking), the defender kept his position but the bump caused him to loosen his defense and offense gets a clear shooting path.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

I had a rebounding situation earlier this season in a BV game in which B2 moves his body, butt first, into airborne A2 who was jumping for a rebound. B2 basically undercut A2 by moving into and displacing him.

Tweet.

Push on B2. A ball at the spot.

Kid looks at me with that "what did I do" look.

You moved him.
I blocked him out.
Blocking out is not displacing your opponent.

Why is this not an intentional foul?

I read an article on this website whose entire focus was on this kind of play. The kid knows the kid is going to shoot or put the rebound back in. He backs up while he is in the air so there is no way the kid can land and will go down hard because he looked over his shoulder and backed up into his space. This article convinced me to use my body language/sign language skills to watch for information that he knows his opponent (typically taller) is going to get the board no matter what and put it back in but maybe I can cause him to rethink by making him go down to the ground hard by backing up underneath him. I am looking forward to replies.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BigT

Why is this not an intentional foul?

I read an article on this website whose entire focus was on this kind of play. The kid knows the kid is going to shoot or put the rebound back in. He backs up while he is in the air so there is no way the kid can land and will go down hard because he looked over his shoulder and backed up into his space. This article convinced me to use my body language/sign language skills to watch for information that he knows his opponent (typically taller) is going to get the board no matter what and put it back in but maybe I can cause him to rethink by making him go down to the ground hard by backing up underneath him. I am looking forward to replies.

What part of the "intentional foul" definition do you think applies here?

*Most of the time* it is "just blocking out" (albeit illegally) and it's not excessive contact or contact designed to neutralize an obvious advantageous position or designed solely to stop the clock.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigT

Why is this not an intentional foul?

I read an article on this website whose entire focus was on this kind of play. The kid knows the kid is going to shoot or put the rebound back in. He backs up while he is in the air so there is no way the kid can land and will go down hard because he looked over his shoulder and backed up into his space. This article convinced me to use my body language/sign language skills to watch for information that he knows his opponent (typically taller) is going to get the board no matter what and put it back in but maybe I can cause him to rethink by making him go down to the ground hard by backing up underneath him. I am looking forward to replies.

If you think he did it on purpose, go ahead and call it intentional. What I normally see is poorly coached players "boxing out" instead of jumping and undercutting the rebounder behind him. I had one this season, and the defender's response was an incredulous, "but I was on the inside."

Me: "You still can't push him or undercut him."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Crouch???

At any rate...what you're dealing with, basically, is displacement. Have I called fouls on players for using their rear end to move someone from one spot to another? Yes, because it's no different than facing the opponent and using your hands to move them. If they're using their backside and you're using yours but no one is moved off their spot there's no advantage gained so no need for a whistle.

Agreed.

Displacement, affecting "Rhythm, Speed, Balance, Quickness", contact that creates an advantage (or places the other player at a disadvantage), rerouting.

Those will answer the vast majority of the myriad "how much contact is allowed" questions you posed.

[HokiePaul]

I would add the concept of Verticallity, which applies to a legal guarding position (Rule 4-45).

Specifically:

Article 5: The offensive player ... may not "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane...

Article 6: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane...

Article 7: The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

I would add the concept of Verticallity, which applies to a legal guarding position (Rule 4-45).

Specifically:

Article 5: The offensive player ... may not "clear out" or cause contact within the defender's vertical plane...

Article 6: The defender may not "belly up" or use the lower part of the body or arms to cause contact outside his/her vertical plane...

Article 7: The player with the ball is to be given no more protection or consideration than the defender in judging which player has violated the rules.

This applies to several situations, but the one I see most commonly is the defender putting his leg/knee squarely into the butt crack of an offensive post player. There's always a look of bewilderment when I call that one. I'll usually warn first, then I'll blow the violation if they don't remove the knee from the arse.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

This applies to several situations, but the one I see most commonly is the defender putting his leg/knee squarely into the butt crack of an offensive post player. There's always a look of bewilderment when I call that one. I'll usually warn first, then I'll blow the violation if they don't remove the knee from the arse.

Just putting the knee there isn't a foul. Requires displacement or (less likely) "holding" to be a foul.