Illegal Screen/Technical video--your thoughts?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

I'm ok with the illegal screen there, but I think I'd have passed. As far as the "T", I don't think it was appropriate for the lead to get this. If I'm the official being yelled at, it's my judgement whether a "T" is warranted. When someone else gets it, as happened here, it makes it look to me like the official who should have called it is too chicken to do so. If the calling official don't see misbehavior, I don't have a problem with a partner picking it up. In this case, he saw what was happening and opted to pass on calling the "T".

As a few others have said, it may have been the standard expectation in that area for someone else to get the T other than the calling official. We can't really say if they handled it well or not without knowing the protocol expected in that area.

We can, however, discuss whether such a protocol is a good idea or not.

I can see both sides on that point. If the same official gets the T, he does look strong and unafraid to deal with it but it may also look like he's being a hardass. When a 2nd official comes in for the T, it may make them appear more like a team, backing each other up.

This is not unlike the expectation in many areas that the 2nd T on a coach, if they don't settle down after the first, should not come from the same official that issued the first. Many areas expect one of the partners to step of and get the 2nd one. I'm don't think it is really as important on the play at hand but the idea is similar.

[ballgame99]

Just to throw my .02 cents in;

I wouldn't call that screen. And I definitely wouldn't call it in the final two minutes of a close playoff game (as someone said was the case here). If this is in the first quarter and we are wanting to set the tone to keep screens clean, its one thing, but I don't see calling this anytime really.

On the T, coach is going ballistic and you pretty much have to call it. In this situation it sucks to have to do it, but Coachs can't get away with all that.

My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Just to throw my .02 cents in;

I wouldn't call that screen. And I definitely wouldn't call it in the final two minutes of a close playoff game (as someone said was the case here). If this is in the first quarter and we are wanting to set the tone to keep screens clean, its one thing, but I don't see calling this anytime really.

On the T, coach is going ballistic and you pretty much have to call it. In this situation it sucks to have to do it, but Coachs can't get away with all that.

My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

In many cases where off ball situation is being called, I do not think an official or partner would see what a partner called in most situations. That being said I never explain any call my partner made when I do not see it or I did not call it. So if my partner "kicked" a call, I would let them explain it. And I would tell the coach, "Why don't you ask him what he called?" I would even say that if I saw the play in some situations. I tell this to players all the time when I did not call anything. If you explain something you did not see, then when the real explanation comes out, then you will lose credibility if you both say something different.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Just to throw my .02 cents in;

I wouldn't call that screen. And I definitely wouldn't call it in the final two minutes of a close playoff game (as someone said was the case here). If this is in the first quarter and we are wanting to set the tone to keep screens clean, its one thing, but I don't see calling this anytime really.

On the T, coach is going ballistic and you pretty much have to call it. In this situation it sucks to have to do it, but Coachs can't get away with all that.

My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

Make a habit of not discussing partners' calls, then it doesn't look funny when you simply say "Coach, you'll have to ask Billy about his call."

Something similar to your comment is ok, as long as your body language or tone don't give away your opinion. Keep your poker face.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

...
My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

Not your job to defend your partner's calls. You simply tell the coach that regardless of his opinion of a call he still has sportsmanship guildelines he has to adhere to.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As a few others have said, it may have been the standard expectation in that area for someone else to get the T other than the calling official. We can't really say if they handled it will or not without knowing the protocol expected in that area.

We can, however, discuss whether such a protocol is a good idea or not.

I can see both sides on that point. If the same official gets the T, he does look strong and unafraid to deal with it but it may also look like he's being a hardass. When a 2nd official comes in for the T, it may make them appear more like a team, backing each other up.

This is not unlike the expectation in many areas that the 2nd T on a coach, if they don't settle down after the first, should not come from the same official that issued the first. Many areas expect one of the partners to step of and get the 2nd one. I'm don't think it is really as important on the play at hand but the idea is similar.

Agreed. I'll also add that even if the calling official is expected to have a first crack at it, it's possible the coach's behavior was such that the lead had to come in and get it. Maybe he was too chicken to call it. Maybe he was just waiting until he reported the first foul. The lead just thought he was going to pass on a foul that needed to be called. Hard to say without video, or without talking to the officials who worked this game.

[REFANDUMP]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As a few others have said, it may have been the standard expectation in that area for someone else to get the T other than the calling official. We can't really say if they handled it well or not without knowing the protocol expected in that area.

We can, however, discuss whether such a protocol is a good idea or not.

I can see both sides on that point. If the same official gets the T, he does look strong and unafraid to deal with it but it may also look like he's being a hardass. When a 2nd official comes in for the T, it may make them appear more like a team, backing each other up.

This is not unlike the expectation in many areas that the 2nd T on a coach, if they don't settle down after the first, should not come from the same official that issued the first. Many areas expect one of the partners to step of and get the 2nd one. I'm don't think it is really as important on the play at hand but the idea is similar.

You've made some excellent points here and I'll agree with them. The main reason I prefer allowing the calling official to administer the "T" is that if I kick a call, I'm going to allow a coach to vent. If my partner "T"'s him, we now have double-trouble because of a call that I kicked.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

You've made some excellent points here and I'll agree with them. The main reason I prefer allowing the calling official to administer the "T" is that if I kick a call, I'm going to allow a coach to vent. If my partner "T"'s him, we now have double-trouble because of a call that I kicked.

"Coach, even if you think I missed that call, you will still treat my crew with respect. That is not negotiable." I don't let a coach vent just because he thinks we missed one (or even if I think we missed one). Adults know how to ask questions reasonably without "venting." Coaches in our area know that venting or gestures that the whole gym can see aren't acceptable. We cracked down on it starting 3 years ago and we just don't see it anymore. Smart guys.... they have adapted.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by zebraman

"Coach, even if you think I missed that call, you will still treat my crew with respect. That is not negotiable." I don't let a coach vent just because he thinks we missed one (or even if I think we missed one). Adults know how to ask questions reasonably without "venting." Coaches in our area know that venting or gestures that the whole gym can see aren't acceptable. We cracked down on it starting 3 years ago and we just don't see it anymore. Smart guys.... they have adapted.

That is pretty much the same here, zebraman. There are acceptably behaviors from a coach...they can't kick over chairs or throw things in the classroom, so they aren't going to do it on the court either.

[REFANDUMP]

I agree that kicking and throwing things are unacceptable under any circumstances. I do not agree however, that we shouldn't allow a coach to vent a little when WE kick a call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

I agree that kicking and throwing things are unacceptable under any circumstances. I do not agree however, that we shouldn't allow a coach to vent a little when WE kick a call.

99% of the time when the coach feels the need to "vent," it's because he thinks we kicked a call. We don't let him act like an idiot when we know the call was right, but he disagrees. Why should he get to act like an idiot when we think we might have kicked one. Or worse, why should he get to act like an idiot because we think our partner kicked one?

I might be a little more open to a question on a call I know was close or may have been kicked, but his standards of behavior remain the same. He can ask a question, and maybe get away with a few more quiet words than I'd put up with otherwise, but public displays of affection are going to get shut down just as quickly as if I was 100% sure of the call.

They're adults. As zebraman and rocky noted, they're quite capable of curbing their behavior when they know it's expected.

One thing that drives me nuts is the whole "it's a tense situation" excuse.

[ref3808]

I have no problem with the illegal screen ruling. I think the screener set his legs outside the allowable frame and there was a bit of a push there as well. Having said that, I've seen worse than that not ruled as illegal.

In any case, the coach simply doesn't get to act that way and disrespect the game and the officials. Not in a scrimmage, not in a regular season game and not in a playoff game. In my opinion officials hesitate far too often to take care of business when the coach's behavior is unacceptable. The coach is supposed to set the standard for his team. Is that the standard we want set?