Illegal Screen/Technical video--your thoughts?

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Adam

I agree on the screen.

I disagree that they can be as demonstrative as they want. His foot stomp is obviously not directed at his players here, so even if nothing was said, I'd be likely to call a T.

If this is the first thing he's done or said to us all game and there's no words to go with the stomp; I might ignore it. However, he doesn't get to act like a five year old mad at his sister without risking a technical foul.

Probably his first T all year, too.

I'm not saying its the case here, as clearly even without sound its targeted at officials. I'm just trying to point out that being demonstrative alone is not enough to earn a T. If he stops his feet and waves his arm but is getting his players attention and ripping into them for going off plan, or playing undisiciplined and is directing traffic as he chews out his players to be better that can't/shouldn't be a T.

In the case of the video it was clearly linked to the call, but being a stomper/waver/wall puncher/clip board tosser etc. Isn't enough to get a T. If its not being directed at officials or accompanied by statements or actions that indicate a correlaton to the call coaches can act like children if they want.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Is this pretty much everywhere? Why is this? Should a technical always be left up to the closest official?

read it in conjunction with my entire brief statement.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

I'm not saying its the case here, as clearly even without sound its targeted at officials. I'm just trying to point out that being demonstrative alone is not enough to earn a T. If he stops his feet and waves his arm but is getting his players attention and ripping into them for going off plan, or playing undisiciplined and is directing traffic as he chews out his players to be better that can't/shouldn't be a T.

In the case of the video it was clearly linked to the call, but being a stomper/waver/wall puncher/clip board tosser etc. Isn't enough to get a T. If its not being directed at officials or accompanied by statements or actions that indicate a correlaton to the call coaches can act like children if they want.

So where is your line? Coach slams his clipboard down on the court and that is OK with you? What if he kicks a chair over? What if he steps to the table and does a big arm sweep and sends the scorebook flying? What if he grabs a towel and starts swinging it and beating the crap out of his chair with it?

As long as you think he is just mad at his players, all those things are OK? It is a serious question...those things are really OK with you?

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Not in my area. Doesn't matter how far you are away when a T is deserved. In fact, a "partner protect" technical is preferred to the appearance of a personal confrontation between calling official and pissed-off coach. Around here, we emphasize that the official(s) facing the table always be scanning the benches to maintain bench control. Obviously, officials facing the benches are further away.

This is how I was trained as well. The C had his back to the coach and did not see the temper tantrum and foot stomping. The Trail had the call, the Lead saw the coach the whole way and had the T. Both calling officials then properly got away to avoid the situation escalating further and let the C offer any explaination to the coach.

[REFANDUMP]

I'm ok with the illegal screen there, but I think I'd have passed. As far as the "T", I don't think it was appropriate for the lead to get this. If I'm the official being yelled at, it's my judgement whether a "T" is warranted. When someone else gets it, as happened here, it makes it look to me like the official who should have called it is too chicken to do so. If the calling official don't see misbehavior, I don't have a problem with a partner picking it up. In this case, he saw what was happening and opted to pass on calling the "T".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

I'm ok with the illegal screen there, but I think I'd have passed. As far as the "T", I don't think it was appropriate for the lead to get this. If I'm the official being yelled at, it's my judgement whether a "T" is warranted. When someone else gets it, as happened here, it makes it look to me like the official who should have called it is too chicken to do so. If the calling official don't see misbehavior, I don't have a problem with a partner picking it up. In this case, he saw what was happening and opted to pass on calling the "T".

As a few others have said, it may have been the standard expectation in that area for someone else to get the T other than the calling official. We can't really say if they handled it well or not without knowing the protocol expected in that area.

We can, however, discuss whether such a protocol is a good idea or not.

I can see both sides on that point. If the same official gets the T, he does look strong and unafraid to deal with it but it may also look like he's being a hardass. When a 2nd official comes in for the T, it may make them appear more like a team, backing each other up.

This is not unlike the expectation in many areas that the 2nd T on a coach, if they don't settle down after the first, should not come from the same official that issued the first. Many areas expect one of the partners to step of and get the 2nd one. I'm don't think it is really as important on the play at hand but the idea is similar.

[ballgame99]

Just to throw my .02 cents in;

I wouldn't call that screen. And I definitely wouldn't call it in the final two minutes of a close playoff game (as someone said was the case here). If this is in the first quarter and we are wanting to set the tone to keep screens clean, its one thing, but I don't see calling this anytime really.

On the T, coach is going ballistic and you pretty much have to call it. In this situation it sucks to have to do it, but Coachs can't get away with all that.

My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As a few others have said, it may have been the standard expectation in that area for someone else to get the T other than the calling official. We can't really say if they handled it will or not without knowing the protocol expected in that area.

We can, however, discuss whether such a protocol is a good idea or not.

I can see both sides on that point. If the same official gets the T, he does look strong and unafraid to deal with it but it may also look like he's being a hardass. When a 2nd official comes in for the T, it may make them appear more like a team, backing each other up.

This is not unlike the expectation in many areas that the 2nd T on a coach, if they don't settle down after the first, should not come from the same official that issued the first. Many areas expect one of the partners to step of and get the 2nd one. I'm don't think it is really as important on the play at hand but the idea is similar.

Agreed. I'll also add that even if the calling official is expected to have a first crack at it, it's possible the coach's behavior was such that the lead had to come in and get it. Maybe he was too chicken to call it. Maybe he was just waiting until he reported the first foul. The lead just thought he was going to pass on a foul that needed to be called. Hard to say without video, or without talking to the officials who worked this game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Just to throw my .02 cents in;

I wouldn't call that screen. And I definitely wouldn't call it in the final two minutes of a close playoff game (as someone said was the case here). If this is in the first quarter and we are wanting to set the tone to keep screens clean, its one thing, but I don't see calling this anytime really.

On the T, coach is going ballistic and you pretty much have to call it. In this situation it sucks to have to do it, but Coachs can't get away with all that.

My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

In many cases where off ball situation is being called, I do not think an official or partner would see what a partner called in most situations. That being said I never explain any call my partner made when I do not see it or I did not call it. So if my partner "kicked" a call, I would let them explain it. And I would tell the coach, "Why don't you ask him what he called?" I would even say that if I saw the play in some situations. I tell this to players all the time when I did not call anything. If you explain something you did not see, then when the real explanation comes out, then you will lose credibility if you both say something different.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

Just to throw my .02 cents in;

I wouldn't call that screen. And I definitely wouldn't call it in the final two minutes of a close playoff game (as someone said was the case here). If this is in the first quarter and we are wanting to set the tone to keep screens clean, its one thing, but I don't see calling this anytime really.

On the T, coach is going ballistic and you pretty much have to call it. In this situation it sucks to have to do it, but Coachs can't get away with all that.

My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

Make a habit of not discussing partners' calls, then it doesn't look funny when you simply say "Coach, you'll have to ask Billy about his call."

Something similar to your comment is ok, as long as your body language or tone don't give away your opinion. Keep your poker face.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

So where is your line? Coach slams his clipboard down on the court and that is OK with you? What if he kicks a chair over? What if he steps to the table and does a big arm sweep and sends the scorebook flying? What if he grabs a towel and starts swinging it and beating the crap out of his chair with it?

As long as you think he is just mad at his players, all those things are OK? It is a serious question...those things are really OK with you?

I don't think "the line" can be a behaviour in these many cases as much as it is context, percieved intent, impact on the game and game area etc.

If I call a travel and the coach slams his clipboard and picks it and mutters to himself I might have something or at least be on the alert for an ABS issue. If the play is going on and his kid turns it over and he slams the clipboard jumps and starts grabbing a player of the bench barking about what he needs him to do and who he's going in for and why . .. how much of that am I even going to pay attention to or acknowledge.

If the coach is up and active all game long yelling at players, calling stuff out, being competitive/demanding and reacting visibly to each play stomping on bad play by his/her team or fist pumping and clapping/running on every shot. Then I'm not going to T him up for being passionate or emotive. Now once its directed at me, or negatively impacts the game or incites the crowd in a negative way we would have a problem.

To answer your questions:

IF a coach slams his clipboard am I ok with that. Why is the clipboard being slammed? Was it already in his hands coming out of a timeout when they break up the play and turn it over so he's tossing in disgust behind his bench. Is he slamming down in a timeout to get his player's attention? Did I just call a 50-50 that went against him and its hitting the sideline or the playing area? Did he rifle it B Knight style at a free throw shooter? Some of these are obvious t's, some might be t's, some are not even getting acknowledged by me or in my area. I can't tell you that the line is the coach slamming the clipboard cause that's not true.

What if he kicks over a chair? What if he does the ole awe shucks shuffle after his kid misses an open look and the chair accidently get knocked over? What if he's upset at a call bust a chair with his foot? What if in a timeout a hear a chair go over and know the coach is upset but i just see someone picking up a chair? The behaviour again is not the only issue on its own.

What if he's up on the table and knocks the scorebook? Well now we're being specific to being out of the box, delaying the game, and most likely intimidating minor officials. So the T and/ toss is coming.

If he grabs the towel and beats the chair? Is it ongoing? HOw would I notice unless it keeps going on or its in response to a stoppage? Does he/she appear out of control or simply ludicrous? Too many factors?

Player and coaches having emotional responses are not enough to give them a T. The nature of the reaction, the situation it happens in, and any number of contextual factors can impact it.

[REFANDUMP]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

As a few others have said, it may have been the standard expectation in that area for someone else to get the T other than the calling official. We can't really say if they handled it well or not without knowing the protocol expected in that area.

We can, however, discuss whether such a protocol is a good idea or not.

I can see both sides on that point. If the same official gets the T, he does look strong and unafraid to deal with it but it may also look like he's being a hardass. When a 2nd official comes in for the T, it may make them appear more like a team, backing each other up.

This is not unlike the expectation in many areas that the 2nd T on a coach, if they don't settle down after the first, should not come from the same official that issued the first. Many areas expect one of the partners to step of and get the 2nd one. I'm don't think it is really as important on the play at hand but the idea is similar.

You've made some excellent points here and I'll agree with them. The main reason I prefer allowing the calling official to administer the "T" is that if I kick a call, I'm going to allow a coach to vent. If my partner "T"'s him, we now have double-trouble because of a call that I kicked.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

...
My question is this, how do you defend your partner when they've made what you feel is a bad/weak call? Just a simple "he had a good angle at coach"?

Not your job to defend your partner's calls. You simply tell the coach that regardless of his opinion of a call he still has sportsmanship guildelines he has to adhere to.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by REFANDUMP

You've made some excellent points here and I'll agree with them. The main reason I prefer allowing the calling official to administer the "T" is that if I kick a call, I'm going to allow a coach to vent. If my partner "T"'s him, we now have double-trouble because of a call that I kicked.

"Coach, even if you think I missed that call, you will still treat my crew with respect. That is not negotiable." I don't let a coach vent just because he thinks we missed one (or even if I think we missed one). Adults know how to ask questions reasonably without "venting." Coaches in our area know that venting or gestures that the whole gym can see aren't acceptable. We cracked down on it starting 3 years ago and we just don't see it anymore. Smart guys.... they have adapted.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by zebraman

"Coach, even if you think I missed that call, you will still treat my crew with respect. That is not negotiable." I don't let a coach vent just because he thinks we missed one (or even if I think we missed one). Adults know how to ask questions reasonably without "venting." Coaches in our area know that venting or gestures that the whole gym can see aren't acceptable. We cracked down on it starting 3 years ago and we just don't see it anymore. Smart guys.... they have adapted.

That is pretty much the same here, zebraman. There are acceptably behaviors from a coach...they can't kick over chairs or throw things in the classroom, so they aren't going to do it on the court either.