LaSalle/Ole Miss (Video Added)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

The T had to look thru the dribblers' and defenders' backs to see what the C had coming straight at him.

Sorry if your video review capabilities don't include objectively looking at what each official can see given their positioning.

..

Based on the garbage you just wrote you haven't even seen the play. But that's par for the course for you.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by APG

That's why we (and especially those officials at that level) get paid the big bucks...being able to appropriately draw the line for the level of competition being worked. I'd venture a guess that this situation would be handled the exact same way by this crew and most other crews. Take that for what it's worth.

Completely agree. And I hope that John Adams and some of his big dawgs are able to turn the pendulum at some point so that coaches at the D-1 level learn how to address officials respectfully, even when they involved in intense, big games. What has become accepted is not necessarily right.

[canuckrefguy]

My thoughts:

Flop.

Coach is fine.

Not a good reach by the C. Trust your partner.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Completely agree. And I hope that John Adams and some of his big dawgs are able to turn the pendulum at some point so that coaches at the D-1 level learn how to address officials respectfully, even when they involved in intense, big games. What has become accepted is not necessarily right.

Having worked college ball and all my sports, the standards are going to be different for that level than what you see at the high school level. That is not anything new or surprising. I had this conversation with a D1 football official this winter. I do not think anything is drastically going to change and I doubt this situation would be used as an example of over the top behavior. I could be wrong, but something tells me this was hardly mentioned if at all with the evaluator. And someone saying "That's awful" is not in my opinion over the top.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Having worked college ball and all my sports, the standards are going to be different for that level than what you see at the high school level. That is not anything new or surprising. I had this conversation with a D1 football official this winter. I do not think anything is drastically going to change and I doubt this situation would be used as an example of over the top behavior. I could be wrong, but something tells me this was hardly mentioned if at all with the evaluator. And someone saying "That's awful" is not in my opinion over the top.

Peace

I respect your opinion Rut. However, to say that he just said, "that's awful" is simplifying the play. He was absolutely reaming the trail and then stood saying "that's awful" four times knowing full well that everyone in the gym was focused on him during the free throws. I see people throw punches at each other for far less "disrespect" in public, but somehow we officials think that it's OK for someone to publicly denigrate us like that.

I agree that it isn't new or surprising. I do think change is coming.

The NBA's "no tolerance" crackdown is one positive sign. I've seen multiple articles from John Adams about officials needing to have the courage to put up with less from coaches. I am constantly hearing about how sportsmanship is getting worse every year at every level from junior high to college. At some point, the pendulum will go back the other way.

I actually think that some of the impetus might come from the coaches who can control their behavior. They really get tired of watching a jackass on the other bench play the fool without getting penalized.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I respect your opinion Rut. However, to say that he just said, "that's awful" is simplifying the play. He was absolutely reaming the trail and then stood saying "that's awful" four times knowing full well that everyone in the gym was focused on him during the free throws. I see people throw punches at each other for far less "disrespect" in public, but somehow we officials think that it's OK for someone to publicly denigrate us like that.

I agree that it isn't new or surprising. I do think change is coming.

The NBA's "no tolerance" crackdown is one positive sign. I've seen multiple articles from John Adams about officials needing to have the courage to put up with less from coaches. I am constantly hearing about how sportsmanship is getting worse every year at every level from junior high to college. At some point, the pendulum will go back the other way.

I actually think that some of the impetus might come from the coaches who can control their behavior. They really get tired of watching a jackass on the other bench play the fool without getting penalized.

Have to say I agree with this somewhat. I do think that part of this is we, as a whole, also have to shift our mindset in terms of reacting to technical fouls. Too often I am seeing officials criticized by observers or partners for being "too quick", or having to explain whether "there was a way to deal with that without calling a T". Now I'm not really one to talk, I have a pretty slow trigger. But if we're going to "crack down" appropriately, part of that process has to be less second-guessing of T's that are called - aside from ones that are obviously officious or unnecessary, of course.

[JRutledge]

The NCAA did address some issues of sportsmanship, but I do not recall this kind of dialog was addressed. I just do not think this very specific case would have raised many antennas for what the coach was saying. And I really think it is unreasonable to expect a coach that is across the court from the C would be doing anything or even noticing this was said. Now if it is heard in a quiet gym, then OK I can understand your point on some level. I just think most officials in this situation honestly are not paying attention to a coach and certainly not "looking for trouble" as we say around here.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I just do not think this very specific case would have raised many antennas for what the coach was saying. And I really think it is unreasonable to expect a coach that is across the court from the C would be doing anything or even noticing this was said.
Peace

I completely agree that it won't raise many antennae. Exactly my point. We have gotten to the point where a coach has to throw his coat in the crowd or run onto the floor while screaming or tell us to F-off to get a T. It'll go the other way.

And it's a total cop-out for a crew to not be able to monitor the bench area because it's on the opposite end of the floor. We don't get to just ref (and manage) the half of the court that we're on.

Canuckrefguy makes a good point. When a ref calls a T, it seems that the usual reaction is.... "couldn't you have done something to avoid the T." How about if the reaction is, "good courage in calling the T... now the coach will know he can't pull that crap with the next crew."

Things trickle down from the NBA. Just watch...... there will be more and more emphasis on cracking down on coach behavior at the college level over the next few years. Those officials who don't learn to ref the sidelines will end up losing opportunities.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by zebraman

I respect your opinion Rut. However, to say that he just said, "that's awful" is simplifying the play. He was absolutely reaming the trail and then stood saying "that's awful" four times knowing full well that everyone in the gym was focused on him during the free throws. I see people throw punches at each other for far less "disrespect" in public, but somehow we officials think that it's OK for someone to publicly denigrate us like that.

Let's clarify a couple of things:
1) you've used the phrase "absolutely reaming the trail" repeatedly...I can only assume that you're basing that on his actions/body language and NOT what he actually said (since only two people - the coach and the Trail - know what was said). There are ways to address this, if you think it's a problem, and a T isn't one of them. Situationally speaking, a Tech at this point DOESN'T make the game better!

2) Very few, if any people in the arena were focused on the coach during the FT's. You are focused on him only because one camera (whose sole focus is reaction shots of game participants) showed his comments. "That's Awful!" x 4 may get addressed in a lower level game, but not in a D1 game - let alone an NCAA Tournament game. Simply put, it's "water off a ducks back".

3) Comparing a basketball game to what happens in "public" is a poor attempt at explaining your viewpoint. The two environments have no relationship with each other in any way, shape, or form. When an actual fight occurs on the court, police are not called to investigate and recommend charges to the local prosecutor.

Overall, I understand your viewpoint. YOU would have addressed/handled, in some form or fashion, the comments/actions of the LaSalle coach. Others on this forum, myself included, would not have considered those comments (which only the Trail heard) or actions (which few, if any, saw) worthy of comment or significant action. In short, this situation would not have interfered with my ability to officiate the remainder of the game. Therefore, I would not have focused much attention on it.

[twocentsworth]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Based on the garbage you just wrote you haven't even seen the play. But that's par for the course for you.

Well there is an intelligent response....kudos to you, sir.

[APG]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Things trickle down from the NBA. Just watch...... there will be more and more emphasis on cracking down on coach behavior at the college level over the next few years. Those officials who don't learn to ref the sidelines will end up losing opportunities.

This situation would have been handled the same way in an NBA game.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Let's clarify a couple of things:
1) you've used the phrase "absolutely reaming the trail" repeatedly...I can only assume that you're basing that on his actions/body language and NOT what he actually said (since only two people - the coach and the Trail - know what was said).

I don't have to be a genius to know from his actions and body language that he wasn't wishing him good health and fortune. C'mon man.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

There are ways to address this, if you think it's a problem, and a T isn't one of them. Situationally speaking, a Tech at this point DOESN'T make the game better!

I have often heard that, "will the T make the game better" comment to justify not giving a T. It's meaningless. Whenever I have given a T to a coach, it has always made the game better for my crew. The coach changes his behavior (and in a HS game, he loses his coaching box which helps even more). Even more important, it makes the game better for the crew that follows mine. As I have said many times, a T isn't always the answer. But ignoring this behavior completely sends the wrong message.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

2) Very few, if any people in the arena were focused on the coach during the FT's. You are focused on him only because one camera (whose sole focus is reaction shots of game participants) showed his comments. "That's Awful!" x 4 may get addressed in a lower level game, but not in a D1 game - let alone an NCAA Tournament game. Simply put, it's "water off a ducks back".

You were in the arena so you know what people were focused on? I've been to many games and the crowd always focuses on a standing coach after he has yelled at an official during transition. You are right.... it doesn't get addressed in a D-1 game. Exactly my point. And it filters down to coach-wannabees and lower-level refs who think that putting up with crap like the big dawgs is the way to success.

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

3) Comparing a basketball game to what happens in "public" is a poor attempt at explaining your viewpoint. The two environments have no relationship with each other in any way, shape, or form. When an actual fight occurs on the court, police are not called to investigate and recommend charges to the local prosecutor.

Actually, you just missed my point. My point is that it has become "the norm" in college basketball to allow verbal abuse of officials, especially late in a close game. We don't want to "decide the game" even though it's actually the inability of the coach to control their behavior that would "decide the game."

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

4)Overall, I understand your viewpoint. YOU would have addressed/handled, in some form or fashion, the comments/actions of the LaSalle coach. Others on this forum, myself included, would not have considered those comments (which only the Trail heard) or actions (which few, if any, saw) worthy of comment or significant action. In short, this situation would not have interfered with my ability to officiate the remainder of the game. Therefore, I would not have focused much attention on it.

Exactly. We have learned to continue to ref and ignore being berated. We don't think it's worthy of action unless the coach goes completely ballistic.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

Well there is an intelligent response....kudos to you, sir.

Well when someone makes this comment:

Originally Posted by twocentsworth

The T had to look thru the dribblers' and defenders' backs to see what the C had coming straight at him.

Sorry if your video review capabilities don't include objectively looking at what each official can see given their positioning.
...

...he better have at least looked at the video.

#1. The Trail kept an angle to see between A1 & B1
#2. B1 never has his back to the Trail and for that fact neither did A1
#3. The C had Black #3 directly in his line of vision when he made the call
#4. A1 was going towards the endline, not towards the C when the call was made
#5. The Trail was about 5ft from A1 and B1 and the "foul" occurred at the top half of the free throw circle on the Trail's side of the court

But let's not have facts stand in the way of your smart-a$$ comments.

Kudos and good day to you Jack-wagon.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zebraman

...
Canuckrefguy makes a good point. When a ref calls a T, it seems that the usual reaction is.... "couldn't you have done something to avoid the T." How about if the reaction is, "good courage in calling the T... now the coach will know he can't pull that crap with the next crew."

....

The usual reaction from whom, talking heads? Definitely not from here.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by zebraman

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I guess it depends on how much emphasis your supervisor (or what's accepted in your area) puts on bench decorum. There is no way the center couldn't at least read his lips during the free throws. With any of the groups I have worked for, if a coach yells, "that's awful," four times during free throws, it needs to be noticed and addressed... especially after he just reamed-out the trail the entire time coming out of backcourt.

The Trail coming up the court and the C during the free-throws is the same official.

And the coach didn't "reamed-out the trail the entire time coming out of backcourt", the coach's tirade lasted all of maybe 2 seconds and in fact he started backing up towards his bench by the time the Trail was crossing the division line.