Last seconds of Georgia at Arkansas

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

No rule support for this. It is possible to catch the ball in one hand. In this particular case, the ball comes to rest in the one hand. Player has both hands on it a split second later.

Please.

There is no rules support that what was shown in the picture was control of the ball either. Better yet, where is the definition for catch in the rulebook? And in the video he brought both hands together on the ball as he was spinning.

Not everything needs a definition to know when to determine control takes place and it is still a judgment call. I do not see definitive control in this picture and why pictures are terrible to show what took place with a game in constant motion. If you need rules support for everything, then officiating is going to be very difficult. You even said your self this could have been a bobble.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Please.

There is no rules support that what was shown in the picture was control of the ball either. Better yet, where is the definition for catch in the rulebook? And in the video he brought both hands together on the ball as he was spinning.

Not everything needs a definition to know when to determine control takes place and it is still a judgment call. I do not see definitive control in this picture and why pictures are terrible to show what took place with a game in constant motion. If you need rules support for everything, then officiating is going to be very difficult. You even said your self this could have been a bobble.

Peace

At some moment, the dribble ends. How does it end? It ends by the player catching the ball with one or both hands. In the above case, when does it end? Would you think is legal for the player in the still shot to then turn the ball back over and dribble again? No....at least I hope not. Why? Because he has ended the dribble by catching the ball. And to dribble again would be an illegal dribble (also known as a carry...which only happens when they hold the ball mid-dribble).

There is no such thing as gathering and the rules do not go anywhere near what you are trying to suggest. There is nothing about two hands being required to be holding the ball. There is also no magical window between when the dribble ends and when the player starts holding the ball. It transitions directly from one to the other.

Dance around it all you want, but you're making up your own rules when you bring "gather" and "two hands" into what is required to be holding the ball.

The moment the dribble ends is when the foot restrictions begin.

[JRutledge]

Well considering that a dribble is done with one hand legally and players tend to have to "stop" the dribble on some level while using one hand. But since he brings the ball to both hands, that is the time I would consider more of a gather. Before that time he is attempting to gather the ball.

And there is such a thing as gathering as it is when someone is trying to catch the ball. Just because you do not have a pretty little definition does not mean it would not apply. And when we have no definition of a catch in basketball either like other sports, then when they actually catch the ball with your logic also is up for debate. As I said, I see both feet on the floor when the finally catches the ball and either foot can be the pivot at that time.

Sometimes we have to officiate and always expecting every rule to cover all situations and examples is silly.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well considering that a dribble is done with one hand legally and players tend to have to "stop" the dribble on some level while using one hand. But since he brings the ball to both hands, that is the time I would consider more of a gather. Before that time he is attempting to gather the ball.

And there is such a thing as gathering as it is when someone is trying to catch the ball. Just because you do not have a pretty little definition does not mean it would not apply. And when we have no definition of a catch in basketball either like other sports, then when they actually catch the ball with your logic also is up for debate. As I said, I see both feet on the floor when the finally catches the ball and either foot can be the pivot at that time.

Sometimes we have to officiate and always expecting every rule to cover all situations and examples is silly.

Peace

The point remains that the dribble ends, by definition, the moment the holding begins. The dribble is stopped by "holding" the ball in one or both hands. To introduce anything else is, by rule, just not correct.

You can't introduce football concepts where a catch needs to be defined (because whether the pass is complete or not depends on it) into basketball where it just doesn't apply.

If the player committed a foul at that moment, would it be a player control foul? If you say yes, that means they are either holding the ball or dribbling the ball. There are no other choices. If you're not going to let them dribble again, that means the dribble has ended and they are holding the ball. If you say no, then you have introduced even more made-up rules that will require another discussion.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The point remains that the dribble ends, by definition, the moment the holding begins. The dribble is stopped by "holding" the ball in one or both hands. To introduce anything else is, by rule, just not correct.

You can't introduce football concepts where a catch needs to be defined (because whether the pass is complete or not depends on it) into basketball where it just doesn't apply.

If said player committed a foul at that moment, would it be a player control foul? If you say yes, that means they are either holding the ball or dribbling the ball. There are no other choices. If you're not going to let them dribble again, then they are holding the ball. If you say no, then you have introduced even more made-up rules that will require another discussion.

I did not say anything about football, just pointed out that other sports have a specific definition of a catch. For all you know I could have been using a baseball standard.

Isn't this why it is called judgment? I have not seen anything you have said that is solidly backed up by any rule as well. Actually you have been giving your opinion the same way I have. And if in live time I can tell that closely if there is control with one hand in examples like this, then it will be a first. Usually players bring the ball as a way to control the ball with both hands. Maybe you are watching different players than I am, but rarely is that done with just one hand. And you even said there is no such thing as a "gather" but you do not seem to know what is commonly used in that example.

We will just have to disagree on this one and I am fine with that fact.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say anything about football, just pointed out that other sports have a specific definition of a catch. For all you know I could have been using a baseball standard.

Isn't this why it is called judgment? I have not seen anything you have said that is solidly backed up by any rule as well. Actually you have been giving your opinion the same way I have. And if in live time I can tell that closely if there is control with one hand in examples like this, then it will be a first. Usually players bring the ball as a way to control the ball with both hands. Maybe you are watching different players than I am, but rarely is that done with just one hand. And you even said there is no such thing as a "gather" but you do not seem to know what is commonly used in that example.

We will just have to disagree on this one and I am fine with that fact.

Peace

Don't confuse the situation with gather...that is universally used in reference to a shooting foul or not a shooting foul. I've have never heard it used in the context of traveling.

And you have once again avoided the main question that will settle the situation....can that player in the still shot above legally turn that ball over and dribble again? Yes or no? If so, why?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Don't confuse the situation with gather...that is universally used in reference to a shooting foul or not a shooting foul. I've have never heard it used in the context of traveling.

I am really not concerned with what you universally have heard or not heard. I just am giving and example of when the player stopped his dribble. Honestly this is about a judgment call and trying to discribe why we have a travel or not a travel. Again not sure how someone stops a dribble without gathering the ball. And this player did so to shoot, so not sure why when that gather took place would all of a sudden not apply?

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And you have once again avoided the main question that will settle the situation....can that player in the still shot above legally turn that ball over and dribble again? Yes or no? If so, why?

Why do people like you always want others to answer things the way you want them to? I have not avoided anything, I just disagree with you. I do not have a travel on that part of the play, it is that simple. If you do, then you will have to live with your call just like I will have to live with my call.

Peace