Weird Play -- FGCU/Lipscomb

[DadofTwins]

A41 inbounds to A5, who catches the ball above his head near halfcourt. B23 guarding closely, leaning toward the slightly-taller A5. A5 turns, with the ball still above his head, to face B23. B23 collapses in a heap. Official facing the play calls nothing. A5 takes three dribbles, B23 does not get up.

Baseline official whistles, and the two officials (the one who blew the whistle and the one who was nearest to the play) go to the monitor. B23 gets up, rubbing his throat.

The call is Flagrant 1 on A5 (elbow above the shoulders), B gets two shots and ball.

3 questions:

1) If the calling official has nothing from 2 feet away, can/should a partner overrule, especially from distance?

2) If no foul has been called (or if the contact is ruled "incidental" during the play), can the officials go to the monitor and assess something after the fact?

3) In general, if a player intentionally puts his head in harm's way, is the foul still the responsibility of the player with the moving elbow? If so, why? (I'm a soccer guy, so I'm used to holding the player who creates the dangerous situation responsible for the resulting action).

Thanks in advance.

[Raymond]

If we can get someone to post the play from Georgia/Ole Miss at 2:57 of the 2nd half you will get the answer to your questions.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by DadofTwins

A41 inbounds to A5, who catches the ball above his head near halfcourt. B23 guarding closely, leaning toward the slightly-taller A5. A5 turns, with the ball still above his head, to face B23. B23 collapses in a heap. Official facing the play calls nothing. A5 takes three dribbles, B23 does not get up.

Baseline official whistles, and the two officials (the one who blew the whistle and the one who was nearest to the play) go to the monitor. B23 gets up, rubbing his throat.

The call is Flagrant 1 on A5 (elbow above the shoulders), B gets two shots and ball.

3 questions:

1) If the calling official has nothing from 2 feet away, can/should a partner overrule, especially from distance?

2) If no foul has been called (or if the contact is ruled "incidental" during the play), can the officials go to the monitor and assess something after the fact?

3) In general, if a player intentionally puts his head in harm's way, is the foul still the responsibility of the player with the moving elbow? If so, why? (I'm a soccer guy, so I'm used to holding the player who creates the dangerous situation responsible for the resulting action).

Thanks in advance.

1) Yes

2) Yes, if they decide it was FF1 or FF2. They can't make it a common foul if it wasn't called on the court.

3) ?

[DadofTwins]

To clarify on Q#3, in soccer if you hit someone in the knee with your face, the foul is on you. Even putting yourself in that position can result in the referee awarding an IFK, even if you put your head close to the person's knee without any contact resulting.

So when I saw a guy put his neck in the crook of another guy's elbow and draw a Flagrant 1, I was confused. It all just seemed a bit odd.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by DadofTwins

To clarify on Q#3, in soccer if you hit someone in the knee with your face, the foul is on you. Even putting yourself in that position can result in the referee awarding an IFK, even if you put your head close to the person's knee without any contact resulting.

So when I saw a guy put his neck in the crook of another guy's elbow and draw a Flagrant 1, I was confused. It all just seemed a bit odd.

Thanks for clarifying.

In some cases, it very well make be called as in soccer.

For example....B4 is racing in to cover A4 and arrives as A4 turns around (not excessivly) and gets caught with an elbow. I'm not inclined to call a foul on A4 at all.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by DadofTwins

To clarify on Q#3, in soccer if you hit someone in the knee with your face, the foul is on you. Even putting yourself in that position can result in the referee awarding an IFK, even if you put your head close to the person's knee without any contact resulting.

So when I saw a guy put his neck in the crook of another guy's elbow and draw a Flagrant 1, I was confused. It all just seemed a bit odd.

Thanks for clarifying.

In the first post, you said, "leaning toward." Here, it's "neck in the crook of." Those seem different to me.

If basketball, this issue mostly has to do with verticality. Based on the descriptions, the first would more likely be a foul on the offense than the latter. But, it's a HTBT issue, and might have been missed.

[JetMetFan]

I'm not posting the entire review since we know how it ended. Again, there was a no-call on the initial contact.

[Camron Rust]

Tough call. That is one that my be correct by the NCAA mandates but it is unjust. The defender was coming in and was just as responsible for that contact as anyone.

[OKREF]

I see the defender has already gotten to that spot when offense turns and catches him. Real tough call though.

[Raymond]

Sure would be nice if the video resembled what the FAN described in the OP.

[HawkeyeCubP]

I don't think it's that close, and I like the FF1 ruling. I'm curious as to what the C was looking at at the moment of contact (looks like he's looking up at the ball or something, instead of at the defender).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by DadofTwins

...

3 questions:

1) If the calling official has nothing from 2 feet away, can/should a partner overrule, especially from distance?

2) If no foul has been called (or if the contact is ruled "incidental" during the play), can the officials go to the monitor and assess something after the fact?

3) In general, if a player intentionally puts his head in harm's way, is the foul still the responsibility of the player with the moving elbow? If so, why? (I'm a soccer guy, so I'm used to holding the player who creates the dangerous situation responsible for the resulting action).

Thanks in advance.

1) Nobody overuled anybody on this play. Play was blown dead and they went to monitor review.

2) Obviously they can. They pretty much have the same guidelines for this as they would with a Correctable Error situation.

3) The player didn't put his head anywhere it didn't belong. He was standing straight up playing defense. He didn't bend over and extend his face into the elbow.

[chapmaja]

to indicate this is a FF1 or FF2. I see contact which occurs because the defensive player is moving into the path of the offensive player, as the offensive player turns to face up court. Given the location of the ball when he catches it, and the position of both players, I think we have nothing.

I think the NCAA has gone too far with the head contact reviews, and they still are not called consistently. In one game that would be nothing. This time it's called a FF1 and in another game it might be a FF2.

The other issue I have with the repeated delays is they break the flow of the game.

I recall a Michigan game a few weeks back where two players were going up for a rebound, and one player jumped diagonally into the elbow of the other player. The play continued and the officials stopped the play to review two things. Was the ensuing basket a 2 pt or 3 pt basket, and was there intentional contact above the head with the elbow. The problem was both were pretty clear. Yes a 3pt basket and not even close to being an elbowing issue.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

to indicate this is a FF1 or FF2. I see contact which occurs because the defensive player is moving into the path of the offensive player, as the offensive player turns to face up court. Given the location of the ball when he catches it, and the position of both players, I think we have nothing.

I think the NCAA has gone too far with the head contact reviews, and they still are not called consistently. In one game that would be nothing. This time it's called a FF1 and in another game it might be a FF2.

The other issue I have with the repeated delays is they break the flow of the game.

I recall a Michigan game a few weeks back where two players were going up for a rebound, and one player jumped diagonally into the elbow of the other player. The play continued and the officials stopped the play to review two things. Was the ensuing basket a 2 pt or 3 pt basket, and was there intentional contact above the head with the elbow. The problem was both were pretty clear. Yes a 3pt basket and not even close to being an elbowing issue.

In any NCAA-M game this play would have been reviewed, either by the officials decision, or by request of a coach. After review, this play would not ever be no-called, in NCAA-M it will always be a minimum FF1.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I think the NCAA has gone too far with the head contact reviews, and they still are not called consistently. In one game that would be nothing. This time it's called a FF1 and in another game it might be a FF2.

The other issue I have with the repeated delays is they break the flow of the game.

So...you'd prefer players get popped in the face with elbows and have nothing called? The kids at the NCAA level (M & W) move quickly and sometimes there's contact that's missed. If there's a way to check it, why not? If the rule causes kids to keep their elbows down and saves someone from a concussion, it's worth it.

Regarding 2s vs. 3s: I think those reviews may happen a bit too often as well but for the sake of getting things right sacrificing a minute or two is worth it.