Contact above the shoulders

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by just another ref

... the committee wants it to be at least an intentional foul.

...after reading some of the comments in this thread...I would say you are going against the thinking of some very well versed officials...and me...

i.e.

Camron, Adam, rockyroad, OKREEF to name a few.

Again, IMO and WA state, a pivot does not HAVE to be an intentional foul.

[just another ref]

As far as I'm concerned, by rule, nowhere does it have to be an intentional foul.

This is a point of emphasis:

"An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul."

as opposed to a rule. I don't think most of us would have come to this blanket conclusion by reading 10-6.

Judge each play on its own merit, or lack thereof, and this problem should take care of itself.

Not surprisingly, the only flagrant personal foul I have ever called in a varsity game was for an elbow to the head.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

NCHSAA instruction on this subject:

Contact with a stationary elbow - common foul
Contact with a moving elbow - intentional foul
Excessive contact with moving elbow - intentional or flagrant

Pretty simple, certainly not worthy of 7 pages of discussion.

Originally Posted by Adam

The discussion was over the definition of "stationary" in this context, and the different interpretations from different states.

Yeah...and? Still not worthy of 7 or 8 pages of discussion IMHO.

Stationary means what it always means. If state associations interpret it differently, there's not much you can do but follow their instruction.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Yeah...and? Still not worthy of 7 or 8 pages of discussion IMHO.

Stationary means what it always means. If state associations interpret it differently, there's not much you can do but follow their instruction.

Tony...how have you called the play where the "pivoting" player with the ball, when his elbows are not moving faster than the torso, makes contact with the defender above the shoulders?

Have you ever called just a PC foul in this situation as opposed to an automatic intentional foul? ...that is if you think a pivoting player's elbows are "moving"...then you must call an intentional foul as you earlier stated, correct?

[just another ref]

We are focusing so much on the movement part, let us not forget the above the shoulders part. It's an elbow to the head. It really doesn't happen that often.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

It's an elbow to the head. It really doesn't happen that often.

Agree, however, in the olden days we had a choice of a player control foul (usually), or an intentional foul (rarely). Now it appears, in some jurisdictions, that we have no choice.