how many fouls is too many?

[maroonx]

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching. I was banging them everytime to send a message. Lost of displacement and redirecting by defenders with body hands, elbow forearms.

At half time my partner was saying that some of those fouls should be let go because the offensive player would of not lost the ball or would of gone pass the defender.

There were some officials in the locker room getting ready for the varsity game after and was telling us that we called way too many fouls. The guy said he was counting them. It seems the discussion was like let things go, calling to many fouls extends the game etc. Needless to say, 2nd half not that much pressing.

Maybe I am over thinking this but I get on the floor and if it is a long game I am there to call it no matter how many fouls or how long. I read somewhere in the NHFS rule book, that we are suppose to call the game regardless of score or situation in the game. After each game I work, I wont to come out of it that I call the perfect game.

[referee50]

very hard to say without actually being there, although it does seem like a lot

[grunewar]

Sometimes games can be a train wreck. As officials, you call what you see. The players should adjust to how you call the game - that is, if they want to continue to play in the game. If the D is too tight and players continue to press, play D right up against the offense, or continue to trap and reach, etc., there may be problems.

I did a GV game a few yrs back where one team was in the bonus ~ 4:00 into the the 1st qtr. It happens.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with asking yourself the question. Every game is a live and learn opportunity. Would you do anything different if you could?

[DRJ1960]

Can't remember whose motto "What you permit, you promote" is, but it is accurate. When we allow too much (whatever that is) physical play, that can lead to much worse than a "long game".

[DrPete]

Some times there are situations when the offensive player is driving by the defender and he is bumped/pushed/hand checked or whatever, BUT the player continues his drive to the basket and scores. If you called a foul on a play like that (before he began his shooting motion), then you are effectively helping the defender and penalizing the offense.

The same thing can happen on a fast break, where you could ignor a little defensive contact if the offensive player can continue down the court and score.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching.

I seriously hope that you didnt use the term "reaching" while doing that game.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching. I was banging them everytime to send a message. Lost of displacement and redirecting by defenders with body hands, elbow forearms.

At half time my partner was saying that some of those fouls should be let go because the offensive player would of not lost the ball or would of gone pass the defender.

There were some officials in the locker room getting ready for the varsity game after and was telling us that we called way too many fouls. The guy said he was counting them. It seems the discussion was like let things go, calling to many fouls extends the game etc. Needless to say, 2nd half not that much pressing.

Maybe I am over thinking this but I get on the floor and if it is a long game I am there to call it no matter how many fouls or how long. I read somewhere in the NHFS rule book, that we are suppose to call the game regardless of score or situation in the game. After each game I work, I wont to come out of it that I call the perfect game.

First of all pay no attention to those varsity guys. They are worried about one thing and one thing only...their game starting on time and you are holding them up. You partner I would pay more attention to but only to a point, was he sincere or did it seem like you we're keeping him from beer:30?

Without being there we can't have a opinion that means anything but in and of itself the numbers don't mean anything. If the players aren't adjusting so be it. Sounds like they did for the second half.

What you need to recollect is was RSBQ affected? Were your calls matching your partners? (From your post this is the only thing I would question, but at the same time maybe he wasn't calling enough). Only you can answer that.

I would say get a mentor that you trust and have him give you an opinion

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls.

I join those who say "had to be there."
Had an early season game with two very aggressive teams a while back. We called 41 total and were criticized by some over that. Went to the video and learned something valuable.
11 "no-calls" which one from one team or the other could argue they'd have wanted a foul on any of those particular plays.
11 "light fouls" some might argue were merely incidental contact and shouldn't have been called.
I don't know that those two stats wash each other out.
Our crew assessed that "keeping it under control" between two very aggressive teams led to the "light fouls", but we agreed upon review that more judicious use of a slower whistle on the part of all of us could've curbed those fouls we could maybe have passed on.
All of this intends to lead up to this question: do you have tape you could review? I know JV doesn't usually do video, which is too bad, because valuable lessons one way or the other come from review.
One such lesson is the analysis of whether there were a lot of whistles on incidental contact.
Still, had to be there.

[JRutledge]

Without video who knows what you should have done. I do know younger officials feel like they need to blow the whistle every time there is some level of contact. That being said I have been in games where I had to call many more fouls than you would think is needed, but if we did not call those fouls we will have more problems.

There is no one-size-fits-all standard. At some point the players should adjust and if they don't, they will not be in the game anymore.

Peace

[Adam]

Two things that caught my eye.

You said you were calling fouls to send a message. Don't make a habit of that. Call the fouls to be sure but don't whistle contact just to send a message.

That brings me to the second point that caught my attention, your partner indicating there were some plays where you called a foul as the offense was getting around. Possession itself isn't a good indicator, but if the dribbler is getting around the defender, you possibly don't have a foul.

Your mention of "reaching" is another possible issue.

Just food for thought.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching. I was banging them everytime to send a message. Lost of displacement and redirecting by defenders with body hands, elbow forearms.

At half time my partner was saying that some of those fouls should be let go because the offensive player would of not lost the ball or would of gone pass the defender.

There were some officials in the locker room getting ready for the varsity game after and was telling us that we called way too many fouls. The guy said he was counting them. It seems the discussion was like let things go, calling to many fouls extends the game etc. Needless to say, 2nd half not that much pressing.

Maybe I am over thinking this but I get on the floor and if it is a long game I am there to call it no matter how many fouls or how long. I read somewhere in the NHFS rule book, that we are suppose to call the game regardless of score or situation in the game. After each game I work, I wont to come out of it that I call the perfect game.

Maroon,
A few thoughts:
1. HTBT is clearly true, BUT...
2. I think your partner had a good point in terms of "letting kids try to play through some things."
3. If you call the "perfect game", it will be the first.
4. #3 can be your BIGGEST enemy. EXPERIENCE will allow you to make a decision as to whether the "contact=a foul or contact is incidental and not a foul".
5. You indicated you were "sending a message, every time". Was the message being received?

As a previous poster asked, is there anything you could have done differently?

The game of basketball can be very difficult to officiate. As officials, we have to keep the game safe for the players. At the same time, we want the players to feel that they were playing the game of basketball and not a free throw competition. Sometimes, the players act as though they would really prefer a free throw competition. Did you call too many fouls? Without seeing the game, I cannot say for sure. At the same time, there are some questions you can ask yourself that can make you a better referee. As a fifth year official, you are experienced, but you will continue to get better over time -- if you are willing to review your performance after each game and make adjustments when (and only when) needed.

Good luck!!!

[Rich]

I will only say this:

I can't remember a single JV game I've watched in the last two years where I thought the officials didn't call enough fouls.

I can think of a few where the crew was calling as many as my partners and I would've called.

In all other occasions, there just wasn't good judgment on advantage/disadvantage, IMO, and the end result is more fouls than is needed to manage the game. Unfortunately, the coaches at the lower levels tend to get used to the game being called that way and expect it, too.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by maroonx

I did a JV game and in the first half we called 42 fouls. 5th year officiating for both me and my partner. Both teams were pressing hard. Lots of arm barring, hand checking, reaching. I was banging them everytime to send a message. Lost of displacement and redirecting by defenders with body hands, elbow forearms.

At half time my partner was saying that some of those fouls should be let go because the offensive player would of not lost the ball or would of gone pass the defender.

There were some officials in the locker room getting ready for the varsity game after and was telling us that we called way too many fouls. The guy said he was counting them. It seems the discussion was like let things go, calling to many fouls extends the game etc. Needless to say, 2nd half not that much pressing.

Maybe I am over thinking this but I get on the floor and if it is a long game I am there to call it no matter how many fouls or how long. I read somewhere in the NHFS rule book, that we are suppose to call the game regardless of score or situation in the game. After each game I work, I wont to come out of it that I call the perfect game.

I'm another in the "had to be there" camp but sometimes it happens. I had a GV game two years ago where we shot 80 FTs (!!!) and six girls fouled out. However, when I thought about it on the way home I didn't think we called anything that didn't need to be called since the girls were playing aggresively to the point of being rough. If kids were being displaced then you and your partner had to do something and it appears the players eventualy figured things out.

I agree with the "don't pay attention to the varsity guys" comment. They're concerned with getting home and they probably did the same thing when they were JV officials. If they gave you some feedback other than they were counting fouls then by all means listen. Telling you they were counting the fouls - which you and your partner could've done if you really wanted to - isn't constructive.

I also agree with the earlier comment: don't call fouls to "send a message." You're already sending a message when you call a foul: what that player did put his/her opponent at a disadvantage not intended by the rules.

All this being said, your partner had a point. Remember, even though these were JV players they're still in high school which means there's a certain amount of contact they should be able to deal with. You call the obvious of course, but you'll learn there are times you can let the play work itself out. Maybe A1 gets bumped a little out top but plays through it at gets to the hoop and scores. Play continues, A's coach is happy because his team got the two points and you've set a standard regarding what kind of contact will be allowed.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I agree with the "don't pay attention to the varsity guys" comment.

I agree with this, too. We just want to get started on time so we can be off the floor by the time the JV guys are getting in bed. The post-game beer doesn't drink itself.

Doesn't matter what we think anyway -- once the JV guys start calling fouls for merely breathing on the opponent, we get up and go to the locker room to slowly get dressed.

(Usually accompanied by one of us turning to the other(s) and saying, "I've seen enough of this (crap).")

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by maroonx

Calling too many fouls extends the game.

Lots of good reasons to pass on some fouls. This (above) is not one of them.