When "shall" means "must"??

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob Jenkins

"If I don't get two players here, it will be a T."

Even if it's not after an intermission, or a timeout? If it is not after a timeout, don't we just use the resumption of pay procedure, put the ball at the disposal of the free thrower, and then just let the chips fall where they may?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even if it's not after an intermission, or a timeout? If it is not after a timeout, don't we just use the resumption of pay procedure, put the ball at the disposal of the free thrower, and then just let the chips fall where they may?

Not for this situation. There's no provision.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Not for this situation. There's no provision.

Different procedure if after a time out ...

10.1.5 SITUATION A:

A1 is fouled by B1 during an unsuccessful try and is awarded two free throws. Team B requests and is granted a charged 60-second time-out. Team B disregards the 15-second warning signal and the signal ending the time-out and is still huddling with their coach at the end of the charged time-out.

RULING: The official shall administer the first free throw using the resumption-of-play procedure and a violation occurs if it is missed. If two B players are not in the required position when the official is ready to put the ball in play for the substitute throw, a delay of game technical foul will be assessed. If the first attempt is good, the same procedure is used for the second. (9-1-2; 10-1-5b)

[Adam]

Agreed, but Billy wanted to use it without a timeout.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Adam

Agreed, but Billy wanted to use it without a timeout.

Ahhh ... I see. Then tell Billy to stop it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

Ahhh ... I see. Then tell Billy to stop it.

We've tried.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Adam

We've tried.

Shut up.

[letemplay]

It seems 10.1.5c says the same, just no timeout is mentioned and neither is a violation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even if it's not after an intermission, or a timeout? If it is not after a timeout, don't we just use the resumption of pay procedure, put the ball at the disposal of the free thrower, and then just let the chips fall where they may?

After a TO (or intermission -- but I can't figure out how you'd have FTs with the lane filled after an intermission) -- use the resumption of play procedure if the lower spaces aren't filled.

Not after a TO -- lower spaces must be filled or it's a T.

(The same is true for the FT shooter.)

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

After a TO (or intermission -- but I can't figure out how you'd have FTs with the lane filled after an intermission) -- use the resumption of play procedure if the lower spaces aren't filled.

Not after a TO -- lower spaces must be filled or it's a T.

(The same is true for the FT shooter.)

In your second scenario (not after a TO) when would you assess the T? After the shooter is bounced the ball? After he/she takes the first shot? Is it also a violation, in so much that if he/she misses the first shot and THEN the T is called, that the first shot is re-taken, followed by the second, followed by the two shots for the T? Sounds like a healthly penalty for a ref screwup...realizing that we are not giving the T unless we've asked B players to get in the spots, or given a few seconds at least for them to get there.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by letemplay

Sounds like a healthly penalty for a ref screwup...realizing that we are not giving the T unless we've asked B players to get in the spots, or given a few seconds at least for them to get there.

Pretty sure that is not even remotely what he is indicating. If you ask the coach to get 2 players in those spots and he refuses or ignores the request, then the T. For me, this would only happen if I've exhausted all reasonable attempts to get the coach to comply.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Pretty sure that is not even remotely what he is indicating. If you ask the coach to get 2 players in those spots and he refuses or ignores the request, then the T. For me, this would only happen if I've exhausted all reasonable attempts to get the coach to comply.

Exactly. It's a T for delaying the game. So, it has to be called before the ball is given to the shooter (otherwise it isn't delaying the game). Since there isn't any FT attempt, there can't be any violation.

If you call, and report the T, and the coach *still* doesn't send two players to the lower blocks, then it's another T.

Your game has gone terribly wrong by this point.

[silverpie]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you call, and report the T, and the coach *still* doesn't send two players to the lower blocks, then it's another T.

Waitaminute. Doesn't the T now put you in a situation where the free throws are shot with the lane cleared?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by silverpie

Waitaminute. Doesn't the T now put you in a situation where the free throws are shot with the lane cleared?

Yes. Good point.

[letemplay]

Originally Posted by Smitty

Pretty sure that is not even remotely what he is indicating. If you ask the coach to get 2 players in those spots and he refuses or ignores the request, then the T. For me, this would only happen if I've exhausted all reasonable attempts to get the coach to comply.

I get that and I realize all this is preventable, but what I'm really trying to find out is what penalty is there (if any) if it does happen? Suppose it's 2-man jv game with one very inexperienced official administering the free throw and the T (guy with some years exp) has turned away for a second to speak with A HC, only to look back at free throw area in time to see A1 getting ready to let the first shot go and notices B has none or only one of the lower spaces occupied. Team A HC thinks he's knows this rule and is up yelling for a violation....T complies and lets A1 have another (first) shot...much to the protest now of B HC. Right or wrong handling of play?