Basketball Fight

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Just for the sake of discussion, are you immediately ejecting them from the gym? Or simple DQ to the bench? In high school, ejection is not mandated (I know that you guys already know that) and actually generally not preferred.

So I'm just throwing that out there for consideration.

Sorry, I meant DQ, not EJ.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the main reason you cannot fly down court after a made basket. There are players that clearly get into some kind of altercation and two officials are well out of the picture and probably no closer than half court. And I am sure that this did not just happen either that something was building up to the ultimate result and that was the fight.

Peace

While I agree, I note that some of this might have been caused by a late rotation. Old T didn't see it, and left. Old C saw it, knew he was now L and left.

Plus, most of the other players had started down court, and only the two antoganists were left (as I recall the video).

[SmokeEater]

Maybe I am seeing this wrong but going frame by frame I see the following occur.

-Initial Participants from Red and White get DQ for fighting penalties cancel each other so no shots.

- 1 red comes off the bench and gets involved in the fight, DQ and T for leaving bench. So far 2 shots for White.

- 2nd red player starts to run from her bench but thinks better and returns.

- 1 white player on the floor jumps in as 3rd in and participates in the fight. DQ for fighting. Cancels and shots from red's second DQ.
Still only 2 shots for white.

- All others are breaking players apart, they are coaches or security from the looks of it. Any other players involved are not fighting.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

2nd red player starts to run from her bench but thinks better and returns.

Yes, and what's the penalty for leaving your bench during a fight?

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Yes, and what's the penalty for leaving your bench during a fight?

You tell me as I think your penalty may be different than mine is in FIBA.

By the letter of the book I see it says Substitutes that leave the confines of the bench area shall be disqualified. Of this we can agree, what I have a problem with is the immediate reaction to help but stopping 1 step in and turning around to go back. I would not penalize her for that action. Is it my right to decide this, I believe it is as long as I am consistent for both teams.
It also says that Irrespective of the number of personnel leaving the bench only 1 "T" is charged against the coach.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

You tell me as I think your penalty may be different than mine is in FIBA.

By the letter of the book I see it says Substitutes that leave the confines of the bench area shall be disqualified. Of this we can agree, what I have a problem with is the immediate reaction to help but stopping 1 step in and turning around to go back. I would not penalize her for that action. Is it my right to decide this, I believe it is as long as I am consistent for both teams.
It also says that Irrespective of the number of personnel leaving the bench only 1 "T" is charged against the coach.

It's a foul and a DQ for each who leaves and does not participate. No matter how many of these there are, it's one indirect and one "set" of FTs for the other team.

It's a separate category for leaving and participating. It's still a foul and a DQ for each, but it's one indirect to the coach for each and one "set" of FTs for each.

In the play, there was one in each category. So, that's two "sets" of FTs and two indirects to the coach.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's a foul and a DQ for each who leaves and does not participate. No matter how many of these there are, it's one indirect and one "set" of FTs for the other team.

It's a separate category for leaving and participating. It's still a foul and a DQ for each, but it's one indirect to the coach for each and one "set" of FTs for each.

In the play, there was one in each category. So, that's two "sets" of FTs and two indirects to the coach.

Thank You, This is same in NFHS and NCAA?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Thank You, This is same in NFHS and NCAA?

I think so.

[JetMetFan]

Joining the party late...

DQs to the main participants, the two Red players who came off the bench AND two of the Red coaches who came onto the court (I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved). I'm reserving judgment on the White bench's involvement because we can't see it. However, we can see at least four people running from that direction so there's a good chance White will have some bench personnel DQed because they left they bench area.

I'd have to speak with my partners about the status of the two White players who jumped on the pile.

As for the officials, the new T needed to get in there faster. If he does, maybe it doesn't escalate to bench-clearing level.

The new C needed to stay by the benches at the division line - as opposed to drifting down to the end line. If he does, there's a good chance the "drifters" from the bench area never make it onto the court. Obviously since this isn't a college game there's no benefit of replay but if he's there he can let his partners know who left what bench. He can also shout at the non-players to stay where they are once things break out.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Joining the party late...

DQs to the main participants, the two Red players who came off the bench AND two of the Red coaches who came onto the court (I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved).

I know you would be correct by rule (at least if you're claiming that you didn't beckon the head coach and that only the head coach can come out rather than ACs as well...by rule), but I think it would be a terrible choice to DQ coaches who come in to act as peacemakers during a (potential) player altercation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by APG

I think it would be a terrible choice to DQ coaches who come in to act as peacemakers during a (potential) player altercation.

Same philosophy here in my little corner of Connecticut. Our local interpreter has told us that if the coaches are helping to control the fight, then they were beckoned, even if they weren't, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that you do.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same philosophy here in my little corner of Connecticut. Our local interpreter has told us that if the coaches are helping to control the fight, then they were beckoned, even if they weren't, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that you do.

Agree.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same philosophy here in my little corner of Connecticut. Our local interpreter has told us that if the coaches are helping to control the fight, then they were beckoned, even if they weren't, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that you do.

Well I'm not sure if he's DQing for the fact that he didn't beckon the coach or the fact that an AC also came onto the court. In any particular player altercation, coaches are always retroactively beckoned in my games. I'm also not going to DQ an AC that comes onto the court to act as a peacemaker or steps out onto the court to help prevent players from the bench from entering the court.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same philosophy here in my little corner of Connecticut. Our local interpreter has told us that if the coaches are helping to control the fight, then they were beckoned, even if they weren't, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that you do.

What I was taught is we have no idea why they're coming onto the court so we deal with it accordingly. Knowing my assignors I'm sure I'd have their support as soon as I put the words "head coach from team xxx entered the court during the incident" on a report.

I had a situation similar to this one about 3-4 years ago and no one from either coaching staff set foot on the court. One thing that helped, I think, is when things broke out I was table-side so I was able to turn and yell for everyone to stay where they were. Two members of the home team bench - non-coaches - didn't listen and they got tossed.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

(I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved).

You're in a huge minority with that stance and would probably give in hot water with every supervisor and assignor that I know.

Coaches control player, not officials. If someone needs to be pulling a player away from a fight, it's that player's coach.

As long as he enters the floor and doesn't make the situation worse, then he's had a positive influence and shouldn't be penalized.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

As long as he enters the floor and doesn't make the situation worse, then he's had a positive influence and shouldn't be penalized.

If the coach is helping to break things up, then he WAS beckoned onto the court -- even if I don't remember doing it.