Basketball Fight

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Both the original two EJ for fighting.

One red EJ for leaving the bench and fighting.

One red EJ for leaving the bench but not fighting.

Two indirects to the red head coach.

4 FTs and the ball for white (I didn't see anyone in White leave the bench, and I assume all the others were either head coaches breaking up the fight, or "security").

I got a couple more than that.... there were two additional white players (#1 and #3) diving into the pile that appeared to be participating. Their arms were a bit too active for them to be considered to just be trying to separate the players.

At the first sign of trouble, I am RUNNING right to it trying to get them apart. That wouldn't have prevented the initial crap but it may have prevented the rest.

I think the C should have been more involved in breaking it up with the Trail standing back and keeping an eye on everything....the C was a lot closer and could get there faster.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I got a couple more than that.... there were two additional white players (#1 and #3) diving into the pile that appeared to be participating. Their arms were a bit too active for them to be considered to just be trying to separate the players.

I agree if they appear to be participating rather than breaking up. That is all judgment and also something I really cannot tell on the video at that angle. It is obvious several non-participants or players come to the fight. But I would not have any problem if those players were disqualified as a result of what I am seeing.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

At the first sign of trouble, I am RUNNING right to it trying to get them apart. That wouldn't have prevented the initial crap but it may have prevented the rest.

I think the C should have been more involved in breaking it up with the Trail standing back and keeping an eye on everything....the C was a lot closer and could get there faster.

This is the main reason you cannot fly down court after a made basket. There are players that clearly get into some kind of altercation and two officials are well out of the picture and probably no closer than half court. And I am sure that this did not just happen either that something was building up to the ultimate result and that was the fight.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Just for the sake of discussion, are you immediately ejecting them from the gym? Or simple DQ to the bench? In high school, ejection is not mandated (I know that you guys already know that) and actually generally not preferred.

So I'm just throwing that out there for consideration.

Sorry, I meant DQ, not EJ.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the main reason you cannot fly down court after a made basket. There are players that clearly get into some kind of altercation and two officials are well out of the picture and probably no closer than half court. And I am sure that this did not just happen either that something was building up to the ultimate result and that was the fight.

Peace

While I agree, I note that some of this might have been caused by a late rotation. Old T didn't see it, and left. Old C saw it, knew he was now L and left.

Plus, most of the other players had started down court, and only the two antoganists were left (as I recall the video).

[SmokeEater]

Maybe I am seeing this wrong but going frame by frame I see the following occur.

-Initial Participants from Red and White get DQ for fighting penalties cancel each other so no shots.

- 1 red comes off the bench and gets involved in the fight, DQ and T for leaving bench. So far 2 shots for White.

- 2nd red player starts to run from her bench but thinks better and returns.

- 1 white player on the floor jumps in as 3rd in and participates in the fight. DQ for fighting. Cancels and shots from red's second DQ.
Still only 2 shots for white.

- All others are breaking players apart, they are coaches or security from the looks of it. Any other players involved are not fighting.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

2nd red player starts to run from her bench but thinks better and returns.

Yes, and what's the penalty for leaving your bench during a fight?

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Yes, and what's the penalty for leaving your bench during a fight?

You tell me as I think your penalty may be different than mine is in FIBA.

By the letter of the book I see it says Substitutes that leave the confines of the bench area shall be disqualified. Of this we can agree, what I have a problem with is the immediate reaction to help but stopping 1 step in and turning around to go back. I would not penalize her for that action. Is it my right to decide this, I believe it is as long as I am consistent for both teams.
It also says that Irrespective of the number of personnel leaving the bench only 1 "T" is charged against the coach.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

You tell me as I think your penalty may be different than mine is in FIBA.

By the letter of the book I see it says Substitutes that leave the confines of the bench area shall be disqualified. Of this we can agree, what I have a problem with is the immediate reaction to help but stopping 1 step in and turning around to go back. I would not penalize her for that action. Is it my right to decide this, I believe it is as long as I am consistent for both teams.
It also says that Irrespective of the number of personnel leaving the bench only 1 "T" is charged against the coach.

It's a foul and a DQ for each who leaves and does not participate. No matter how many of these there are, it's one indirect and one "set" of FTs for the other team.

It's a separate category for leaving and participating. It's still a foul and a DQ for each, but it's one indirect to the coach for each and one "set" of FTs for each.

In the play, there was one in each category. So, that's two "sets" of FTs and two indirects to the coach.

[JetMetFan]

Joining the party late...

DQs to the main participants, the two Red players who came off the bench AND two of the Red coaches who came onto the court (I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved). I'm reserving judgment on the White bench's involvement because we can't see it. However, we can see at least four people running from that direction so there's a good chance White will have some bench personnel DQed because they left they bench area.

I'd have to speak with my partners about the status of the two White players who jumped on the pile.

As for the officials, the new T needed to get in there faster. If he does, maybe it doesn't escalate to bench-clearing level.

The new C needed to stay by the benches at the division line - as opposed to drifting down to the end line. If he does, there's a good chance the "drifters" from the bench area never make it onto the court. Obviously since this isn't a college game there's no benefit of replay but if he's there he can let his partners know who left what bench. He can also shout at the non-players to stay where they are once things break out.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Joining the party late...

DQs to the main participants, the two Red players who came off the bench AND two of the Red coaches who came onto the court (I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved).

I know you would be correct by rule (at least if you're claiming that you didn't beckon the head coach and that only the head coach can come out rather than ACs as well...by rule), but I think it would be a terrible choice to DQ coaches who come in to act as peacemakers during a (potential) player altercation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

(I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved).

You're in a huge minority with that stance and would probably give in hot water with every supervisor and assignor that I know.

Coaches control player, not officials. If someone needs to be pulling a player away from a fight, it's that player's coach.

As long as he enters the floor and doesn't make the situation worse, then he's had a positive influence and shouldn't be penalized.

[tref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I note that some of this might have been caused by a late rotation.

Yes sir, I think thats a rotation that we want to back out of. The shot was in progress & the L wasnt even a 3rd of the way across.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Old T didn't see it, and left. Old C saw it, knew he was now L and left.

Unfortunately, this is what happens when we rotate on the shot/drive, in addition to many other things.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I think the C should have been more involved in breaking it up with the Trail standing back and keeping an eye on everything....the C was a lot closer and could get there faster.

Like bob pointed out, both Ts thought the other guy was the C.
For some reason, they both marked the attempt
They signaled the make at the same time & that tells me nobody had rebounding action.
The principles of dead ball officiating after the make & looking back in transition were not followed.

IMO the L is way too laid back on this one!! The players chest bump at :8 then the defender throws a punch at :9 & the presence of the L isnt felt until :16 and all of the action AT the block.

Anytime theres an altercation or an ejected coach I like to go back a few plays to see how it all started. This is either a rivalry or something was said or done earlier. I hate to be a Monday morning QB but this has got to be shut down sooner. I wonder what the assignor thought???

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree, I note that some of this might have been caused by a late rotation. Old T didn't see it, and left. Old C saw it, knew he was now L and left.

Plus, most of the other players had started down court, and only the two antoganists were left (as I recall the video).

I agree with that on many levels. The last rotation did cause some of this. But even if I am the new lead in these situation, I am not in an incredible hurry to go down court either. Someone could have been in the picture and been around that is all. The late rotation likely put them in a situation of doubt and that is why they were there. I also do not feel that cause the problem, just think that there ability to "help out" their partner was affected because they were both so far away. It does seem like they did something to keep the white team off the court or at least it appears that way by the angle. This is something we all can learn from mostly.

Peace

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

At the first sign of trouble, I am RUNNING right to it trying to get them apart. That wouldn't have prevented the initial crap but it may have prevented the rest.

I think the C should have been more involved in breaking it up with the Trail standing back and keeping an eye on everything....the C was a lot closer and could get there faster.

I thought that we were not supposed to touch the players during a fight? Should we physically seperate them or mearly try to get between them or ?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

Try to get between them?

Accepted procedure around here (above).

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I thought that we were not supposed to touch the players during a fight? Should we physically seperate them or mearly try to get between them or ?

I'm not going to grab players and restrain them but I'm not afraid to get between them so they have to go through me to get to the other player.

If they're not yet "engaged", I've gone in with my arms between them creating a wedge and even pushing them away from each other in the process. (This may not be advisable with girls).

The last time I did that, I actually saved one player from being penalized at all. It was a one-sided fight where one player, who had been a troublemaker already, got in an opponents face and started yelling at him and shoving him. The second player didn't respond other than trying to remain standing. I pushed the second, innocent player out of harms way to intercept the troublemaker. Since he was off balance from the push by the troublemaker, he actually fell after I shoved him back. We tossed the troublemaker and had no penalty for the other. The coach of the kid that was shoved thanked me for getting between them and getting his kid out of it even if I did push him. He knew that my actions prevented a bigger problem.