Basketball Fight

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

2nd red player starts to run from her bench but thinks better and returns.

Yes, and what's the penalty for leaving your bench during a fight?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

While I agree, I note that some of this might have been caused by a late rotation. Old T didn't see it, and left. Old C saw it, knew he was now L and left.

Plus, most of the other players had started down court, and only the two antoganists were left (as I recall the video).

I agree with that on many levels. The last rotation did cause some of this. But even if I am the new lead in these situation, I am not in an incredible hurry to go down court either. Someone could have been in the picture and been around that is all. The late rotation likely put them in a situation of doubt and that is why they were there. I also do not feel that cause the problem, just think that there ability to "help out" their partner was affected because they were both so far away. It does seem like they did something to keep the white team off the court or at least it appears that way by the angle. This is something we all can learn from mostly.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I thought that we were not supposed to touch the players during a fight? Should we physically seperate them or mearly try to get between them or ?

I'm not going to grab players and restrain them but I'm not afraid to get between them so they have to go through me to get to the other player.

If they're not yet "engaged", I've gone in with my arms between them creating a wedge and even pushing them away from each other in the process. (This may not be advisable with girls).

The last time I did that, I actually saved one player from being penalized at all. It was a one-sided fight where one player, who had been a troublemaker already, got in an opponents face and started yelling at him and shoving him. The second player didn't respond other than trying to remain standing. I pushed the second, innocent player out of harms way to intercept the troublemaker. Since he was off balance from the push by the troublemaker, he actually fell after I shoved him back. We tossed the troublemaker and had no penalty for the other. The coach of the kid that was shoved thanked me for getting between them and getting his kid out of it even if I did push him. He knew that my actions prevented a bigger problem.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Yes, and what's the penalty for leaving your bench during a fight?

You tell me as I think your penalty may be different than mine is in FIBA.

By the letter of the book I see it says Substitutes that leave the confines of the bench area shall be disqualified. Of this we can agree, what I have a problem with is the immediate reaction to help but stopping 1 step in and turning around to go back. I would not penalize her for that action. Is it my right to decide this, I believe it is as long as I am consistent for both teams.
It also says that Irrespective of the number of personnel leaving the bench only 1 "T" is charged against the coach.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

You tell me as I think your penalty may be different than mine is in FIBA.

By the letter of the book I see it says Substitutes that leave the confines of the bench area shall be disqualified. Of this we can agree, what I have a problem with is the immediate reaction to help but stopping 1 step in and turning around to go back. I would not penalize her for that action. Is it my right to decide this, I believe it is as long as I am consistent for both teams.
It also says that Irrespective of the number of personnel leaving the bench only 1 "T" is charged against the coach.

It's a foul and a DQ for each who leaves and does not participate. No matter how many of these there are, it's one indirect and one "set" of FTs for the other team.

It's a separate category for leaving and participating. It's still a foul and a DQ for each, but it's one indirect to the coach for each and one "set" of FTs for each.

In the play, there was one in each category. So, that's two "sets" of FTs and two indirects to the coach.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's a foul and a DQ for each who leaves and does not participate. No matter how many of these there are, it's one indirect and one "set" of FTs for the other team.

It's a separate category for leaving and participating. It's still a foul and a DQ for each, but it's one indirect to the coach for each and one "set" of FTs for each.

In the play, there was one in each category. So, that's two "sets" of FTs and two indirects to the coach.

Thank You, This is same in NFHS and NCAA?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Thank You, This is same in NFHS and NCAA?

I think so.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think so.

NCAAM and NCAAW differ. No fouls, just DQs on men's side for leaving the bench. Last I looked for women it was a technical foul and DQ.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

In NFHS, for players, dq to the bench is all there is. There is no ejection from the gym.

Somebody will correct me if this is not the case.

Under NFHS rules the Referee has the authority to have an individual charged with a flagrant foul removed from the gym. Properly supervised, of course.

[JetMetFan]

Joining the party late...

DQs to the main participants, the two Red players who came off the bench AND two of the Red coaches who came onto the court (I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved). I'm reserving judgment on the White bench's involvement because we can't see it. However, we can see at least four people running from that direction so there's a good chance White will have some bench personnel DQed because they left they bench area.

I'd have to speak with my partners about the status of the two White players who jumped on the pile.

As for the officials, the new T needed to get in there faster. If he does, maybe it doesn't escalate to bench-clearing level.

The new C needed to stay by the benches at the division line - as opposed to drifting down to the end line. If he does, there's a good chance the "drifters" from the bench area never make it onto the court. Obviously since this isn't a college game there's no benefit of replay but if he's there he can let his partners know who left what bench. He can also shout at the non-players to stay where they are once things break out.

[APG]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

Joining the party late...

DQs to the main participants, the two Red players who came off the bench AND two of the Red coaches who came onto the court (I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved).

I know you would be correct by rule (at least if you're claiming that you didn't beckon the head coach and that only the head coach can come out rather than ACs as well...by rule), but I think it would be a terrible choice to DQ coaches who come in to act as peacemakers during a (potential) player altercation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by APG

I think it would be a terrible choice to DQ coaches who come in to act as peacemakers during a (potential) player altercation.

Same philosophy here in my little corner of Connecticut. Our local interpreter has told us that if the coaches are helping to control the fight, then they were beckoned, even if they weren't, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that you do.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same philosophy here in my little corner of Connecticut. Our local interpreter has told us that if the coaches are helping to control the fight, then they were beckoned, even if they weren't, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that you do.

Agree.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Same philosophy here in my little corner of Connecticut. Our local interpreter has told us that if the coaches are helping to control the fight, then they were beckoned, even if they weren't, if you know what I mean, and I'm sure that you do.

Well I'm not sure if he's DQing for the fact that he didn't beckon the coach or the fact that an AC also came onto the court. In any particular player altercation, coaches are always retroactively beckoned in my games. I'm also not going to DQ an AC that comes onto the court to act as a peacemaker or steps out onto the court to help prevent players from the bench from entering the court.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

(I don't care why they came on, they're not supposed to unless we ask them and there's no way I want more people involved).

You're in a huge minority with that stance and would probably give in hot water with every supervisor and assignor that I know.

Coaches control player, not officials. If someone needs to be pulling a player away from a fight, it's that player's coach.

As long as he enters the floor and doesn't make the situation worse, then he's had a positive influence and shouldn't be penalized.