one in four years

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
We need an emoticon for speechless...

Nah, we just need a picture of Chuck, since he's been speechless since I challenged him on this.

Does anyone have a picture of Chuck?

[Lotto]

My view is that block makes it certain that the ball isn't going in the bucket, so the try has ended before the ball leaves the shooter's hand. Hence no loss of team control, hence no backcourt violation.

Another way to look at it is that the ball hasn't been "released" as part of the try, but rather swatted away by the defender.

The comparison to a batted ball while dribbling seems quite a propos here...

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
I contend we only have a try if the ball is in flight towards the player's own basket.

No, no, no...that's not what the rule says. The ball doesn't even have to take flight to be considered a try. You can't possibly disagree with that.

There's definitely a try. The question is whether the shot being blocked and subsequently leaving the shooter's hand constitutes the ball being in flight.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Lotto
My view is that block makes it certain that the ball isn't going in the bucket, so the try has ended before the ball leaves the shooter's hand.

How can you possibly say that the try has ended when the ball hasn't left the shooter's hand? You have no way of knowing the try won't be good until it leaves his hand. You've never seen a shot blocked that didn't still leave the shooter's hand and had a chance to go in?

Point is, until it leaves his hand, you can't know that it's not going in, unless you have ESP! And when it leaves his hand, TC ends.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Ah...but your argument hinges on the fact that the try is in flight. I contend we only have a try if the ball is in flight towards the player's own basket. There is precedence for this in the case book.

True. My lawyers were only taking issue with your point that my point was invalid due to the direction that the ball went. Or something like that. Can I have a sidebar? :-)

Z

[cmathews]

any my two cents worth....if you have ESP don't even show up at the game, just mail in the results LOL :P

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

[/B]

As I recall those case plays under 9-5 refer to how a dribble ends for the purposes of determining travel, and 9.5.1 is one of those ways - am I right? If so then I'm not sure 9-5-1 can be extended to include what constitues loss of team control. Would you say A lost team control if B1 knocks the ball from A1's hands not during a try? I know, I know, you're gonna say it's different because A1 did start his try, then I'm gonna ask why & you're gonna say because. Got anything better? [/B][/QUOTE]Nope,9.5.1 talks about a player blocking a shot(after it's left the shooter's hands),and the shooter getting the ball in the air and coming down with it. Ruling? Legal-can dribble,pass or shoot.Player and team control ended when shooter released the ball.Now,if you knock the ball out of the hands of a player holding the ball,ya definitely got a loss of player control BUT No loss of team control.So,the question is-"is it different on a shot-i.e.what caused the ball to be in flight?Attempted shot? I don't think that this one is definitevely covered,to be honest.I just liked Tony's reasoning.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
/B]

Nah, we just need a picture of Chuck, since he's been speechless since I challenged him on this.

Does anyone have a picture of Chuck? [/B][/QUOTE]It;s a dirty job,but somebody's gotta do it!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by zebraman

True. My lawyers were only taking issue with your point that my point was invalid due to the direction that the ball went. Or something like that. Can I have a sidebar? :-)

Z

why don't we just hit the bar?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

As I recall those case plays under 9-5 refer to how a dribble ends for the purposes of determining travel, and 9.5.1 is one of those ways - am I right? If so then I'm not sure 9-5-1 can be extended to include what constitues loss of team control. Would you say A lost team control if B1 knocks the ball from A1's hands not during a try? I know, I know, you're gonna say it's different because A1 did start his try, then I'm gonna ask why & you're gonna say because. Got anything better? [/B]

Nope,9.5.1 talks about a player blocking a shot(after it's left the shooter's hands),and the shooter getting the ball in the air and coming down with it. Ruling? Legal-can dribble,pass or shoot.Player and team control ended when shooter released the ball.Now,if you knock the ball out of the hands of a player holding the ball,ya definitely got a loss of player control BUT No loss of team control.So,the question is-"is it different on a shot-i.e.what caused the ball to be in flight?Attempted shot? I don't think that this one is definitevely covered,to be honest.I just liked Tony's reasoning. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, if the ball's already in flight we already lost team control, so it doesn't apply at all.

You just like Tony better, that's all! :sniff sniff:

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

No, no, no...that's not what the rule says. The ball doesn't even have to take flight to be considered a try. You can't possibly disagree with that.

There's definitely a try. The question is whether the shot being blocked and subsequently leaving the shooter's hand constitutes the ball being in flight.

I'm not saying the ball needs to be in flight to have a try. I'm saying it can't be a try if the attempt is made at the opponent's basket - this counters your argument that the ball is in flight when B1 strips A1 before the shot gets off. The ball took flight towards the opponent's basket; ergo, ipso facto and zippity doo-dah we don't have a try.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, if the ball's already in flight we already lost team control, so it doesn't apply at all.

You just like Tony better, that's all! :sniff sniff:

No,I like you(and Jim Nayzium) about the same!

I still gotta agree with Tony that the ball is in flight because of the blocked shot,too,and it's still a try also.Ergo,ipso facto and patrice lumumba,there's a loss of team control.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

How can you possibly say that the try has ended when the ball hasn't left the shooter's hand? You have no way of knowing the try won't be good until it leaves his hand. You've never seen a shot blocked that didn't still leave the shooter's hand and had a chance to go in?

Point is, until it leaves his hand, you can't know that it's not going in, unless you have ESP! And when it leaves his hand, TC ends.

Whoa...I think I'm getting dizzy....

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

No,I like you(and Jim Nayzium) about the same!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
we just need a picture of Chuck, since he's been speechless since I challenged him on this.

Sorry. I had to drive my parents to the airport this morning. See? Sometimes I actually do have a life.

Anyway, here's my "contribution". Let's change the scenario slightly. A1 begins his try. B1 bats the ball out of A1's hands before A1 releases the try. (So far, it's the same.) But suppose that instead of directing the ball toward the backcourt, B1's bat sends the ball toward A's goal. The ball is in flight. The horn sounds, ending the period. The ball enters the basket. You gonna count it?

If you say that the basket is good, then you think that A1 released a try for goal, meaning that team control ended. In that case, you also have to say that there would be no backcourt violation in the original play.

If you wave off the basket, then you obviously think that A1 did not release a try for goal. In that case, you also have to say that you would call the backcourt violation.

Personally, I'm leaning to waving off the basket.