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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 01:13am
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one in four years

I botched my first backcourt call in over four years tonight.
Blue on offense, Black on defense. I am trail.
A player for blue beats his defender with the dribble at the top of the key. He reaches the free throw line and pulls up for a jumpshot. Just as he reaches the apex of his jump and prepares to release the shot, a second defender comes from the side and swats the ball from his hands. The ball goes behind the shooter's head and bounces on the floor near the top of the key. This defender for black continues in his path and is just about to scoop up the ball, when the original shooter spins around, dives backward, and bats the ball into the backcourt where a waiting teammate of his catches it.
Thinking that a shot was attempted and blocked, I let play continue. Shame on me.
Hopefully someone on the board will learn from this play. I know I did.
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 09:32am
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Re: one in four years

Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Thinking that a shot was attempted and blocked, I let play continue.
Why isn't this a shot?
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 09:52am
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I'm with Tony on this. Even though the shot never actually "took flight," I would think that a blocked shot attempt would satisfy the intent of the team control rule. Seems that team control would end on the blocked attempt. I wouldn't call this as a backcourt violation.

Z
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 09:54am
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Z, how could you say that there's no team control, when the ball is still clearly in his hands?
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 09:55am
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Re: Re: one in four years

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Thinking that a shot was attempted and blocked, I let play continue.
Why isn't this a shot?
It is a shot ("try"), but there's no loss of team control:

NCAA 4-13 (Def'n of "In-control---player, team")
Art. 3. Team control shall continue until the ball is in flight during a try for goal, an opponent secures control or the ball becomes dead.

Since the ball was swatted before the try, there's still team control, so the play described is a backcourt violation.

I wouldn't have gotten this right either! Thanks for sharing...
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:01am
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Hmmmmm...I don't have my fed book with me so I can only quote the NCAA rule now. I think I'm quoting everything that applies here.

Quote:
4-13 In control - player, team
...
Art 3 Team control shall continue until the ball is in flight during a try for goal...
Art 4 There shall be no team control during:
...
d A try for goal after the ball is in flight;...
(I see Lotto beat me to it! )


[Edited by Dan_ref on Jul 3rd, 2003 at 10:03 AM]
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:04am
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NF 4-12-3

Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.
b. An opponent secures control.
c. The ball becomes dead.

No flight - no loss of team control.
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:10am
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Talking THis one will go at least 3 pages!

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Z, how could you say that there's no team control, when the ball is still clearly in his hands?
Okay, it's on! Here we go!!

4-40-3
The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

4-12-3
Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

The try has started, the ball is swatted out of his hand, it's now in flight. When it's apparent the try has no chance to score, the try has ended. But team control has ended. This is a try that was slapped out of a shooter's hand, not a dribble that was slapped away by a defender. Team control has ended.

Your turn!
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:10am
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I agree that wording "in flight," makes it appear as if there is still team control. However, I wonder about the intent of the rule. It would be interesting to see a case book play on that one. The try motion has obviously started and the ball is certainly in flight once it is swatted. :-) Where are the lawyers for Mike Price and Rick Neuheisel when you need them?

Z
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:20am
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Re: THis one will go at least 3 pages!

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Z, how could you say that there's no team control, when the ball is still clearly in his hands?
Okay, it's on! Here we go!!

4-40-3
The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

4-12-3
Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

The try has started, the ball is swatted out of his hand, it's now in flight. When it's apparent the try has no chance to score, the try has ended. But team control has ended. This is a try that was slapped out of a shooter's hand, not a dribble that was slapped away by a defender. Team control has ended.

Your turn!
We need an emoticon for speechless, but let's try this:

4-66-1

A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score 2 or 3 points by throwing or tapping the ball into his or her basket.

Clearly the ball is in flight away from the shooter's own basket, in fact it is in flight towards his oppnent's basket, is it not? I request the court rule in my favor that this play does not meet the requirements as set forth and rule that team control has not ended.

Nothing further, your honor.

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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:21am
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Re: THis one will go at least 3 pages!

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Z, how could you say that there's no team control, when the ball is still clearly in his hands?
Okay, it's on! Here we go!!

4-40-3
The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

4-12-3
Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

The try has started, the ball is swatted out of his hand, it's now in flight. When it's apparent the try has no chance to score, the try has ended. But team control has ended. This is a try that was slapped out of a shooter's hand, not a dribble that was slapped away by a defender. Team control has ended.

Your turn!
Casebook play 4.12COMMENT says there's no team control after the ball has left the hand on a try or tap for goal.It doesn't say HOW it leaves the hand,which is Tony's point.Also,casebook play 9.5.1 talks about a blocked shot.Using the same logic as 9.5.1,if B1 knocks the ball out of A1's hands on a shot,and A1 recovers it in the air and comes down,are you gonna call A1 for travelling? I'm not! I think that I'm going with Tony on this one(at least,until something else might get pointed out ).
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:24am
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Re: Re: THis one will go at least 3 pages!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score 2 or 3 points by throwing or tapping the ball into his or her basket. Clearly the ball is in flight away from the shooter's own basket, in fact it is in flight towards his oppnent's basket, is it not? I request the court rule in my favor that this play does not meet the requirements as set forth and rule that team control has not ended. Nothing further, your honor.

Motion denied with force. Note that the words you quoted say that it is an attempt to score into his or her own basket. Even though the shot was swatted the other direction, this doesn't change the fact that the try attempt was made towards the shooter's own basket. :-)

Z
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:25am
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Re: Re: THis one will go at least 3 pages!

Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]
We need an emoticon for speechless, but let's try this:

[/B][/QUOTE]
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:30am
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Re: Re: THis one will go at least 3 pages!

Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Z, how could you say that there's no team control, when the ball is still clearly in his hands?
Okay, it's on! Here we go!!

4-40-3
The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

4-12-3
Team control continues until:
a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

The try has started, the ball is swatted out of his hand, it's now in flight. When it's apparent the try has no chance to score, the try has ended. But team control has ended. This is a try that was slapped out of a shooter's hand, not a dribble that was slapped away by a defender. Team control has ended.

Your turn!
Casebook play 4.12COMMENT says there's no team control after the ball has left the hand on a try or tap for goal.It doesn't say HOW it leaves the hand,which is Tony's point.Also,casebook play 9.5.1 talks about a blocked shot.Using the same logic as 9.5.1,if B1 knocks the ball out of A1's hands on a shot,and A1 recovers it in the air and comes down,are you gonna call A1 for travelling? I'm not! I think that I'm going with Tony on this one(at least,until something else might get pointed out ).
As I recall those case plays under 9-5 refer to how a dribble ends for the purposes of determining travel, and 9.5.1 is one of those ways - am I right? If so then I'm not sure 9-5-1 can be extended to include what constitues loss of team control. Would you say A lost team control if B1 knocks the ball from A1's hands not during a try? I know, I know, you're gonna say it's different because A1 did start his try, then I'm gonna ask why & you're gonna say because. Got anything better?
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Old Thu Jul 03, 2003, 10:35am
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Re: Re: Re: THis one will go at least 3 pages!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score 2 or 3 points by throwing or tapping the ball into his or her basket. Clearly the ball is in flight away from the shooter's own basket, in fact it is in flight towards his oppnent's basket, is it not? I request the court rule in my favor that this play does not meet the requirements as set forth and rule that team control has not ended. Nothing further, your honor.

Motion denied with force. Note that the words you quoted say that it is an attempt to score into his or her own basket. Even though the shot was swatted the other direction, this doesn't change the fact that the try attempt was made towards the shooter's own basket. :-)

Z
Ah...but your argument hinges on the fact that the try is in flight. I contend we only have a try if the ball is in flight towards the player's own basket. There is precedence for this in the case book.

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