You Make The Call (again)

[Adam]

A1 goes up for a breakaway dunk, but misses. He hangs for a moment as there's a defender nearby. But while he's up there, he continues to swat at the ball a.) while it's in the cylinder b.) after it exits the cylinder.

[APG]

Interesting...I think I'd have a.)basket interference and in b.)technical foul...

At least that would be my instinct if I had this in my game.

[Raymond]

IMO, once he starts making plays for the ball he no longer hanging on the rim for his safety.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

IMO, once he starts making plays for the ball he no longer hanging on the rim for his safety.

Agreed. In a) do we call the BI and tack on a technical as well, or just one or the other?

[Adam]

I was T, and blew the whistle for a T. We got together and decided to go with BI instead.

In hind sight, 10-3-4 justifies a T. While I don't hate the BI call, I think I would have preferred a T.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was T, and blew the whistle for a T. We got together and decided to go with BI instead.

In hind sight, 10-3-4 justifies a T. While I don't hate the BI call, I think I would have preferred a T.

This is a HTBT play for me. I'm not of the opinion that just because he began swatting at the ball, he was automatically out of danger in terms of returning to the floor, which is why I would have to see the situation to judge clearly. From your OP, it's no clear when he begins swatting at the ball if he is out of danger below him.

And, by swatting at the ball, do you mean he made contact with the ball?

If he's in danger with regards to players below him, and he never makes contact with the ball while swatting, I have nothing.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was T, and blew the whistle for a T. We got together and decided to go with BI instead.

In hind sight, 10-3-4 justifies a T. While I don't hate the BI call, I think I would have preferred a T.

As soon as the ball ceased to be in contact with the player's hands, he must not make contact with it again while the ball is within the cylinder. If he does, that's BI.
If the the ball has left the cylinder, then he can't infringe upon 10-3-4 to make a play on it while holding onto the ring. If he does, then the technical foul occurs prior to his tap or try and the ball becomes dead, so no goal could be scored. While that outcome may essentially be the same as calling BI, it technically is not BI.
BTW I had a similar play in a Regional Semi-Final last season and T'd the 6-10 center for one of the teams. He missed a dunk and while still holding onto the ring tried to knock the ball into the basket. He made contact with the ball and the ball was out of the cylinder when he went after it.

Originally Posted by fiasco

This is a HTBT play for me. I'm not of the opinion that just because he began swatting at the ball, he was automatically out of danger in terms of returning to the floor, which is why I would have to see the situation to judge clearly. From your OP, it's no clear when he begins swatting at the ball if he is out of danger below him.

And, by swatting at the ball, do you mean he made contact with the ball?

If he's in danger with regards to players below him, and he never makes contact with the ball while swatting, I have nothing.

You are using an incorrect standard to judge this situation. You are trying to use whether he is still in danger at the time while you should be using whether the player is gaining or attempting to gain an unfair advantage.

The player is permitted to hang on the ring to protect himself from injury. However, that is all that he is allowed to do. He cannot take part in the game action while there. To do so, would be to gain an advantage from hanging on the ring and that infringes upon 10-3-4. He should be penalized as soon as he makes a play for the ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As soon as the ball ceased to be in contact with the player's hands, he must not make contact with it again while the ball is within the cylinder. If he does, that's BI.
If the the ball has left the cylinder, then he can't infringe upon 10-3-4 to make a play on it while holding onto the ring. If he does, then the technical foul occurs prior to his tap or try and the ball becomes dead, so no goal could be scored. While that outcome may essentially be the same as calling BI, it technically is not BI.
BTW I had a similar play in a Regional Semi-Final last season and T'd the 6-10 center for one of the teams. He missed a dunk and while still holding onto the ring tried to knock the ball into the basket. He made contact with the ball and the ball was out of the cylinder when he went after it.

Thanks for the confirmation, I appreciate it.

[Raymond]

What I said:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

IMO, once he starts making plays for the ball he is no longer hanging on the rim for his safety.

What I meant as eloquently stated by our resident lawyer:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

...


You are using an incorrect standard to judge this situation. You are trying to use whether he is still in danger at the time while you should be using whether the player is gaining or attempting to gain an unfair advantage.

The player is permitted to hang on the ring to protect himself from injury. However, that is all that he is allowed to do. He cannot take part in the game action while there. To do so, would be to gain an advantage from hanging on the ring and that infringes upon 10-3-4. He should be penalized as soon as he makes a play for the ball.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I was T, and blew the whistle for a T. We got together and decided to go with BI instead.

In hind sight, 10-3-4 justifies a T. While I don't hate the BI call, I think I would have preferred a T.

Yep, it's a T in either situation.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A1 goes up for a breakaway dunk, but misses. He hangs for a moment as there's a defender nearby. But while he's up there, he continues to swat at the ball a.) while it's in the cylinder b.) after it exits the cylinder.

a) OBI
b) if there is a defender nearby preventing a safe landing, then nothing. If not, or if I think they're staying "up there" for an advantage, then a T. Though I don't really see the case where a defender would be that nearby for that long to affect a safe landing.

[asdf]

Swatting at the ball while it's inside the cylinder in and of itself is not a violation. No contact, no violation.

That being said, once he swats at the ball, he's no longer grasping the rim for safety resons alone, a technical foul should be assessed. The location of the ball has no bearing.

Now, if he contacts the ball during this event, you may have BI depending on the location of the ball. No matter that outcome, you should have a technical foul as well.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by asdf

Swatting at the ball while it's inside the cylinder in and of itself is not a violation. No contact, no violation.

That being said, once he swats at the ball, he's no longer grasping the rim for safety resons alone, a technical foul should be assessed. The location of the ball has no bearing.

Now, if he contacts the ball during this event, you may have BI depending on the location of the ball. No matter that outcome, you should have a technical foul as well.

Safety reasons alone? (My books are packed away for the summer...) Please cite a rule or case play.

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Safety reasons alone? (My books are packed away for the summer...) Please cite a rule or case play.

NFHS 10.3.3 Situation B is the closest we get...

A1 jumps for a try near the basket but loses his/her balance after releasing the ball. A1 grasps the basket to prevent injury. The ball: (a) is; or (b) is not, in the basket or on the ring while A1 is hanging on the ring.

RULING: In (a), it is basket interference by A1 which causes the ball to become dead and no goal can be scored. In (b), there is no violation unless A1 is still hanging on the ring when the ball touches the basket or goes into the basket. In both (a) and (b), A1's grasping is not penalized if it is judged there was a possibility of injury had he/she not grasped the basket. (Rule 9, Section 1)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Safety reasons alone? (My books are packed away for the summer...) Please cite a rule or case play.

Gaining an advantage violates 10-3-4, for which there is no player safety exception.

The exception applies to 10-3-3.