Make the call

tiger_tee · #1 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 22, 2002, 06:19pm

4th down and team A decides to kick. After a good kick (no flags), the ball comes to rest without being touched. A member of K runs up to the ball and, bending at the waist, places one hand on the ball. In no way was K attempting to pick the ball up. Immediately after K's touching, a member of R grabs the ball from under K's hand and starts down the field. Question: Was the ball dead or still live?

Middleman · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 22, 2002, 06:35pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tiger_tee
4th down and team A decides to kick. After a good kick (no flags), the ball comes to rest without being touched. A member of K runs up to the ball and, bending at the waist, places one hand on the ball. In no way was K attempting to pick the ball up. Immediately after K's touching, a member of R grabs the ball from under K's hand and starts down the field. Question: Was the ball dead or still live?

Key phrase: "... the ball comes to rest." The ball became dead and the down ended when K was first to touch the ball AT REST following the kick.

AndrewMcCarthy · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 22, 2002, 06:39pm

Correct- ball is dead when K touches it.

Rule 4-2-2f.

The Ref of OZ!!! · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 23, 2002, 10:35am

That's right. The ball was already dead before K touched it, when it came to rest.

Now, another one which is similar....

4th down, K-1 kicks the ball which travels 30 yards down the field. R-1 backs away from the ball, indicating he does not intend to attempt to catch the ball, but rather let it drop. After one bounce, K-2 catches the ball, and the drops it. R-2 rushes in and picks up the ball and begins to run, but only gains 2 yards before being tackled. As the covering official, when should you blow your whistle?

mikesears · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 23, 2002, 11:09am

Quote:

Originally posted by The Ref of OZ!!!
That's right. The ball was already dead before K touched it, when it came to rest.

Now, another one which is similar....

4th down, K-1 kicks the ball which travels 30 yards down the field. R-1 backs away from the ball, indicating he does not intend to attempt to catch the ball, but rather let it drop. After one bounce, K-2 catches the ball, and the drops it. R-2 rushes in and picks up the ball and begins to run, but only gains 2 yards before being tackled. As the covering official, when should you blow your whistle?

(NFHS rules)
If K2 possessed the ball (and a catch is possession), it was dead at that point and that is when the whistle should have been blown.

tiger_tee · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 23, 2002, 05:13pm

I was the BJ on this game and blew the ball dead. My umpire and ref told me later I had nothing but a live ball and we should have called an Inadvertant Whistle.

ABoselli · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 23, 2002, 05:39pm

They were wrong and should never work high school football again! OK, maybe that's a little harsh - I'll just go with you were right.

Middleman · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 23, 2002, 06:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tiger_tee
I was the BJ on this game and blew the ball dead. My umpire and ref told me later I had nothing but a live ball and we should have called an Inadvertant Whistle.

Is there more to the story, Tiger? I'll repeat the key phrases "the ball comes to rest" and "after K's touching".

If the ball was, in fact, at rest (i.e. on the ground motionless) then it became dead and the down ended instantly when K touched it. Andrew gave you the right rule reference (4-2-2f). That, my friend, is a judgement call.

If, however, the ball was not at rest, it would have been First Touching by K and the ball would have been live. Typically, if R is making a bona fide attempt to recover the ball, most BJ's will leave it live. That is probably what your crewmates' concern is.

You can take that to your next association meeting and have a lively discussion. Based on YOUR JUDGEMENT (as you posted), your R and U were incorrect. Besides, how would they know the status of the ball following a kick downfield? Next time tell the ref he missed a roughing and tell the umpire he missed a hold. This is a case of "Cover your own area". They should get the message.

One more thing - for OZ. Don't be mistaken that a ball is dead simply because it is at rest. There are two stipulations: 1) It is on the ground motionless AND no player is attempting to secure possession, or 2) it is a kick that is at rest AND it is touched by K before it is touched by R. Details, details ...

Happy Holidays. Have fun.

Theisey · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 23, 2002, 06:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tiger_tee
I was the BJ on this game and blew the ball dead. My umpire and ref told me later I had nothing but a live ball and we should have called an Inadvertant Whistle.

Did they offer the reason for why they believe the ball is still live?
If NCAA, they'd be correct, but for NF, I'm with the others. Ball DEAD, play is over.

The Ref of OZ!!! · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 23, 2002, 08:00pm

That is an example of judgement on your part, as said above, it was judgement call. The other bit of judgement that you need to use, is when asked by anyone, the ball was dead!!! If they question your judgement, and you will of course second guess yourself, tell them the ball was dead! That's the one advantage of not having instant replay in HS ball. As an experienced official, that's the advise I give you. When you make the call, that's the way it is!!!! And like I said, you'll wonder all night if that was the right call or not. We all make mistakes on the field, but when you make the call, you are right!!! Even when you're wrong.

JugglingReferee · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 23, 2002, 08:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tiger_tee
4th down and team A decides to kick. After a good kick (no flags), the ball comes to rest without being touched. A member of K runs up to the ball and, bending at the waist, places one hand on the ball. In no way was K attempting to pick the ball up. Immediately after K's touching, a member of R grabs the ball from under K's hand and starts down the field. Question: Was the ball dead or still live?

As a matter of interest, in Canadian football, we would have a restraining zone foul on the K team, but only if an R player is also within the restraining zone. However, if the K player is the kicker or an onside player, then (s)he would recover the ball and it would be their ball, 1st down, if yards were gained. LP is yards was not gained.