Discussing a call with your partner

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Who said Rocky wasn't about getting the call right? He's about trusting that your partner will know if there's a chance he got it wrong.

Instead of trusting your partner to approach you if he sees something, you're trusting your partner to ask you if he thinks he may have missed it.

Either approach works if done by people who truly want to get the plays right, so I don't understand the subtle animosity towards those who approach it differently.

I disagree, rockys approach is if they dont ask, I will not tell even if he has definitive info.
In my experiences, those who follow that mindset love to bring it up in the lockerroom, after the game when there is nothing you can do about it.

Others believe that they should provide the info & allow the calling official to decide what to do with the info.

When the boss asks about the questionable OOB call with 4 seconds left in a tied ballgame, I would like to be seen on film offering info as opposed to saying, "he didnt ask for help."
Because "he didnt ask for help" will lead to "did you see it?"
Thats just me...

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

I disagree, rockys approach is if they dont ask, I will not tell even if he has definitive info.
In my experiences, those who follow that mindset love to bring it up in the lockerroom, after the game when there is nothing you can do about it.

Others believe that they should provide the info & allow the calling official to decide what to do with the info.

When the boss asks about the questionable OOB call with 4 seconds left in a tied ballgame, I would like to be seen on film offering info as opposed to saying, "he didnt ask for help."
Because "he didnt ask for help" will lead to "did you see it?"
Thats just me...

I believe Rocky's mindset is that on a bang-bang play (that's what we are talking about, not a clear tip that occurs outside the vision or PCA of the calling official) in front of one official that there is just as much a chance the long-distance official may have missed something.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

I disagree, rockys approach is if they dont ask, I will not tell even if he has definitive info.
In my experiences, those who follow that mindset love to bring it up in the lockerroom, after the game when there is nothing you can do about it.

Others believe that they should provide the info & allow the calling official to decide what to do with the info.

When the boss asks about the questionable OOB call with 4 seconds left in a tied ballgame, I would like to be seen on film offering info as opposed to saying, "he didnt ask for help."
Because "he didnt ask for help" will lead to "did you see it?"
Thats just me...

Again, both systems only work when everyone involved wants to get it right. If I'm lead, and there's a play where I need help, I'll ask. Too many times, though, the T sees blue tip the ball and thinks it's white ball. What he misses, though, is that white hit it after. If T comes in on me there, I'm not changing.

I promise you, I'll ask if there's any chance I missed it. I will also, however, assume my partner is as conscientious as I am.

Obviously, things change if my partner is green or week, but all the rules go out in that case anyway.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Too many times, though, the T sees blue tip the ball and thinks it's white ball. What he misses, though, is that white hit it after. If T comes in on me there, I'm not changing.

Great! That is the calling officials option, at least the info was provided.
I know "some guys" that would never ask for help as they think their credibility would be lost
IMO, sticking with an IC & not even asking for help is worse.

Everybody wants to get plays right when we're talking in the lockerroom. Get out on the floor & people get sensitive.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Great! That is the calling officials option, at least the info was provided.
I know "some guys" that would never ask for help as they think their credibility would be lost
....

I let my partner(s) know in the pre-game to expect at least one "help" solicitation from me. I have no qualms at all asking for help.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Great! That is the calling officials option, at least the info was provided.
I know "some guys" that would never ask for help as they think their credibility would be lost
IMO, sticking with an IC & not even asking for help is worse.

Everybody wants to get plays right when we're talking in the lockerroom. Get out on the floor & people get sensitive.

I get what you're saying. While I agree it's frustrating to work with a sensitive partner, if he's that sensitive, approaching him isn't going to make a difference.

Personally, I think both approaches have merit. Both will work when everyone wants to get the plays right, and neither will work if any of the officials are overly territorial.

[tref]

Originally Posted by snaqwells

personally, i think both approaches have merit. Both will work when everyone wants to get the plays right, and neither will work if any of the officials are overly territorial.

+1

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tref

Out of curiousity, when you lead the pregame how do you discuss "helping partners" on OOB calls?

What do you do when working with a guy like myself, who doesnt believe in that practice & is all about getting the play right?

First of all, I will put my record of "getting calls right" and the level of games I have worked up against yours any day...so don't try to go there.

Secondly, in pregame(whether I am leading it or not) I will tell my partners that if they want my help, ask for it, and I will give it. If they don't ask, there's no reason for me to give help. And I tell them that if I want their help, I will ask for it. If I don't ask, I don't need their help.

So if I am working with you, and I call an oob and you come running down to me making a big show of helping me out, I will simply say "thank you", change the call to what you wanted it to be, and then do my best to never work with you again. And no, I will not bring it up in the locker room.

If I am working with you and I make an oob call and people start going nuts, I will think "hmmm, did I miss something here?" and then I will yell "Partner, you got something for me?". And then I will change my call or not based on the info you give me.

If I am working with you and you make an oob call and I have info you might want, I will hold my spot and stand there and smile at you stupidly. If you shake your head at me, away I go...if you want my information, you will ask me "Partner, you got something for me?"

Nice and simple...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JWP

I didn't have a problem with my partner stepping in, although other officials have said my partner was out of line. What do you think?

As a general rule this should always be a pre-game item. But during the summer or off-season ball that is not always possible.

What you describe sounds pretty basic stuff unless your partner signaled without consultation. But it is typical for a partner on a close out of bounds call where they see the entire play to come to the calling official and give them information. As long as he gave you information and you changed the call based on that information, not sure what is the problem.

Peace

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

First of all, I will put my record of "getting calls right" and the level of games I have worked up against yours any day...so don't try to go there.

Secondly, in pregame(whether I am leading it or not) I will tell my partners that if they want my help, ask for it, and I will give it. If they don't ask, there's no reason for me to give help. And I tell them that if I want their help, I will ask for it. If I don't ask, I don't need their help.

So if I am working with you, and I call an oob and you come running down to me making a big show of helping me out, I will simply say "thank you", change the call to what you wanted it to be, and then do my best to never work with you again.

If I am working with you and I make an oob call and people start going nuts, I will think "hmmm, did I miss something here?" and then I will yell "Partner, you got something for me?". And then I will change my call or not based on the info you give me.

If I am working with you and you make an oob call and I have info you might want, I will hold my spot and stand there and smile at you stupidly. If you shake your head at me, away I go...if you want my information, you will ask me "Partner, you got something for me?"

Nice and simple...

Like whoa, there's that sensitivity I was talking about!!

First of all, my "getting the play right" comment was in regards to having info & not providing it. Holding my spot & smiling at you stupidly is STUPID & doesnt do the game any justice whatsoever IMO.

If I'm the coach who the IC went against & I see you standing there smiling, I want to know what you think is so funny! I'll probably get whacked, but I will show the play to your supervisor & see what he thinks about it & you smiling while not helping your partner.

We'll have to agree to disagree about your thought process on help & no I dont want to battle you. There are too many potholes in my game, my CC % couldn't be in your ballpark. Im not that good...

Originally Posted by JRutledge

it is typical for a partner on a close out of bounds call where they see the entire play to come to the calling official and give them information. As long as he gave you information and you changed the call based on that information, not sure what is the problem.

Perhaps rockyroad was his partner :-)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by tref

Like whoa, there's that sensitivity I was talking about!!

First of all, my "getting the play right" comment was in regards to having info & not providing it. Holding my spot & smiling at you stupidly is STUPID & doesnt do the game any justice whatsoever IMO.

If I'm the coach who the IC went against & I see you standing there smiling, I want to know what you think is so funny! I'll probably get whacked, but I will show the play to your supervisor & see what he thinks about it & you smiling while not helping your partner.

We'll have to agree to disagree about your thought process on help & no I dont want to battle you. There are too many potholes in my game, my CC % couldn't be in your ballpark. Im not that good...




Perhaps rockyroad was his partner :-)

Maybe I am missing the background of this little tift, but it is typical to do this on out of bounds calls. This is not done on other calls. And it sounds like your issue is the facial expressions of your partners and not what they really saw or what they could help with.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

If I am working with you and I make an oob call and people start going nuts, I will think "hmmm, did I miss something here?" and then I will yell "Partner, you got something for me?". And then I will change my call or not based on the info you give me.

If I screw the pooch on an out of bounds call, and my partner has any information that can help us to get the call right, I want him to offer unsolicited help, and not just if the crowd moans. We're a team, and the crowd isn't part of our team. They don't know the secret handshake.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If I screw the pooch on an out of bounds call, and my partner has any information that can help us to get the call right, I want him to offer unsolicited help, and not just if the crowd moans. We're a team, and the crowd isn't part of our team. They don't know the secret handshake.

Not talking about the crowd...could care less about the crowd. If the players on the court start going "HEY! He touched that!" I will simply ask my partner for help. If I don't ask my partner, they don't need to come running in there to fix something that's not broke.

And to tref - it's not "sensitivity" to respond to a direct attack like you threw out. It's normal human behavior. You can think the things I do are stupid all you want...but there is no reason to think that you are the knight on a white horse who is going to rescue the crew on every "bad" (and that's your opinion anyway) oob call. Why not trust your partner on these plays?

[APG]

I prefer a hybrid...there are times I'll ask my partner for help after making an OOB call, if the players and coach are fussing more than usual. But also, I want my partner to feel free to come to me with additional information if he thinks I absolutely blew a call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I prefer a hybrid...there are times I'll ask my partner for help after making an OOB call, if the players and coach are fussing more than usual. But also, I want my partner to feel free to come to me with additional information if he thinks I absolutely blew a call.

This pretty much where I sit as well, but I'm not married to it enough to justify insulting those who choose differently. And I'd have no problem adjusting to an R who chose one way or the other (such as working with either Rocky or tref).