Great call, partner

[Nevadaref]

I was working a two-man system in a girls' game tonight with a friend of mine. He is a quality official and has worked 3 state championships so far, but has never been really strong on the rules. He came to me last season and expressed his desire to improve his rules knowledge in order to help his chances of working college games, so we have been spending some time covering case book-type plays over a few beers.
Anyway, it paid off tonight. He was lead and had A1 drive down the middle of the lane. She jumped and was fouled across the arms by B1 while in the act of shooting. At this point I heard his whistle, so I knew what he had. I then observed A1 plow over B2 who had LGP under the basket. (NFHS rules) The contact was hard, sending both players to the floor, and the defender took it squarely in the chest.
The try was not successful.
At this moment I thought, I can't call that because he's already called a foul on the defense and it would just make a mess of things. Surprise! I then heard his whistle again, and he called the PC. "Great call, partner!" is what went through my mind.
He now comes off the end line and we meet at the top of the key. He says, "False double, now what do we do?"
In this summer league, we award one point and shoot one FT for fouls committed against a shooter if the try is unsuccessful. I told him that we penalize each in order, so we give Gold one point and one shot with no one on the lane and then award the ball OOB to Blue. I then gave a quick run down to the table of what I wanted done score- and foul-wise, so that both coaches could hear and on we went. It really went quite smoothly, and this made me realize that this call could and should be made without causing too much of a stir, which was why I was hesitant to call it when it happened. Thankfully, my partner stepped up.
After the game, I told him what a great call he had made, and that I was really pleased that he knew it was a false double. Of course, I shared my thought process during the play with him and added that I should have had the second foul for him, since it needed to be called, and that I wouldn't let him down like that again.
He responded by telling me that he even knew to count the basket if it had been made! He just wasn't sure about the administration of everything, so he wanted to check with me.
This was the first time I had ever seen this call made by a single official, and I'm glad he did it because he saved me.
In the end, I think I learned more on this play than he did.

[footlocker]

nice

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
I was working a two-man system in a girls' game tonight with a friend of mine. He is a quality official and has worked 3 state championships so far, but has never been really strong on the rules. He came to me last season and expressed his desire to improve his rules knowledge in order to help his chances of working college games, so we have been spending some time covering case book-type plays over a few beers.
Anyway, it paid off tonight. He was lead and had A1 drive down the middle of the lane. She jumped and was fouled across the arms by B1 while in the act of shooting. At this point I heard his whistle, so I knew what he had. I then observed A1 plow over B2 who had LGP under the basket. (NFHS rules) The contact was hard, sending both players to the floor, and the defender took it squarely in the chest.
The try was not successful.
At this moment I thought, I can't call that because he's already called a foul on the defense and it would just make a mess of things. Surprise! I then heard his whistle again, and he called the PC. "Great call, partner!" is what went through my mind.
He now comes off the end line and we meet at the top of the key. He says, "False double, now what do we do?"
In this summer league, we award one point and shoot one FT for fouls committed against a shooter if the try is unsuccessful. I told him that we penalize each in order, so we give Gold one point and one shot with no one on the lane and then award the ball OOB to Blue. I then gave a quick run down to the table of what I wanted done score- and foul-wise, so that both coaches could hear and on we went. It really went quite smoothly, and this made me realize that this call could and should be made without causing too much of a stir, which was why I was hesitant to call it when it happened. Thankfully, my partner stepped up.
After the game, I told him what a great call he had made, and that I was really pleased that he knew it was a false double. Of course, I shared my thought process during the play with him and added that I should have had the second foul for him, since it needed to be called, and that I wouldn't let him down like that again.
He responded by telling me that he even knew to count the basket if it had been made! He just wasn't sure about the administration of everything, so he wanted to check with me.
This was the first time I had ever seen this call made by a single official, and I'm glad he did it because he saved me.
In the end, I think I learned more on this play than he did.

The basket does not count on the false double 4.19.8 situation A.

[Nevadaref]

You're correct. Thanks for pointing that out.
Thank goodness the shot didn't go in during the game.

My partner was obviously confused by the case book play above the one you cited, 4.19.7 C, and sadly he even convinced me! I guess I could use even more brushing up than I thought! New memory rule: ONLY COUNT THE BASKET ON A DOUBLE FOUL.

I'm working with my buddy again this weekend, and I'll pass this tidbit along.

[BoomerSooner]

Remember a player control foul on the airborn shooter will always negate the shot in FED regardless of any other fouls.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by BoomerSooner
Remember a player control foul on the airborn shooter will always negate the shot in FED regardless of any other fouls.

This is also true in NCAA rules. (stir, stir, stir. . . )

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

This is also true in NCAA rules. (stir, stir, stir. . . )

In NCAA Wimmen's rules too?

Yes, I read your disclaimer.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

In NCAA Wimmen's rules too?

Yup. In fact, in some sense this is true only in NCAAW. That's because a foul by an airborne shooter in NCAAM is not PC.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by BoomerSooner
Remember a player control foul on the airborn shooter will always negate the shot in FED regardless of any other fouls.

Your statement may be a bit of an oversimplification. While it is in fact correct, you really have to make sure that you do actually have a player control foul.

What I mean by that is what looks like a PC may technically not be a PC and then your rule of thumb could easily be misapplied.

For example, when two fouls make a double foul, they lose their individual features and are treated as a totally new animal, which has it's own specific penalty. (This is NOT the case for a False Double foul.) If you read 4.19.7C, you will see how many people could be mislead by your above statement. The first sentence of the ruling says, "Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the two fouls result in a double personal foul." Therefore, an official would be wrong to negate a shot for this foul.

My prior knowledge of that sentence actually tricked me in the post-game discussion with my partner. Simply because I knew that there is a time when a player commits what appears to be a PC and the basket DOES count. I just confused this case book play with the one blindzebra cited.
As can be seen from that play, each foul of the false double is penalized separately and retains the all penalties that we normally associate with it, specifically the PC cancelling a made goal.

Looking back on that post-game, I can really understand what some coaches go through in a game. Most of them know just enough rules to get them into trouble. They read a paragraph, remember part of it, and are sure they are right about the rule. Only later do they find out that what they knew doesn't apply to the situation in question.

So, I find myself truly grateful to blindzebra for correcting me. I would much rather have to go to an official friend of mine and tell him that I was mistaken in our post-game, than to have really embarrassed myself by screwing up a game.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Lotto
That's because a foul by an airborne shooter in NCAAM is not PC.

Aww, that was hardly any fun at all. Lotto knew what I was getting at right away. (Guess I shoulda used an analogy.) My point was simply that in any ruleset, if there's a PC foul, the basket can't be scored. In NCAA men's, if the shot is released before the contact, then there is no player control and it's a common foul against the player who shot the ball. So no PC foul in this sitch.

But if it is a PC foul, then no basket can be scored.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Aww, that was hardly any fun at all. Lotto knew what I was getting at right away. (Guess I shoulda used an analogy.) My point was simply that in any ruleset, if there's a PC foul, the basket can't be scored. In NCAA men's, if the shot is released before the contact, then there is no player control and it's a common foul against the player who shot the ball. So no PC foul in this sitch.

But if it is a PC foul, then no basket can be scored.

This means an airborne shooter after the shot is away, correct? (Not that it matters, since I'll never do NCAAM anyway...)

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
After the game, I told him what a great call he had made, and that I was really pleased that he knew it was a false double.

Nevada -- Doesn't it feel great when someone you help gets better? At my camp last year there was a guy who really needed work, but he learned a lot. This year, he came to my 3-person clinics, and was invited to the college camp I went to. He got all kinds of recognition and awards, and he'll probably get college games in a year if not this fall. I almost felt like it was me moving up so fast. So to both you AND your friend I say, WAY TO GO!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

This means an airborne shooter after the shot is away, correct? (Not that it matters, since I'll never do NCAAM anyway...)

Before the shot is away (ie he released the ball on a try) he's simply an airborne player, not an airborne shooter, by definition.

[ChuckElias]

Juulie, for NCAA men's. . .

Jump, crash, release, ball goes in = PC, no basket, no FTs for B1.

Jump, release, crash, ball goes in = common foul, basket counts, B1 shoots bonus if applicable.

This is actually more consistent with the rest of the rules about player and team control, but harder to officiate. And as Dan pointed out a scant 2 minutes ago, there's no "airborne shooter" rule in NCAA men's.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Juulie, for NCAA men's. . .

Jump, crash, release, ball goes in = PC, no basket, no FTs for B1.

Jump, release, crash, ball goes in = common foul, basket counts, B1 shoots bonus if applicable.

This is actually more consistent with the rest of the rules about player and team control, but harder to officiate. And as Dan pointed out a scant 2 minutes ago, there's no "airborne shooter" rule in NCAA men's.

Uhhhhm, no, I'm not sure that's what I meant to point out a mere 5 minutes ago.

All I pointed out in reponse to Juulie's question was by definition the player is not an airborne shooter before he shoots.

As you pointed out slightly less than 5 hours ago under ncaam the PC foul does not apply to the airborne shooter.