Discussing a call with your partner

[JWP]

I saw this discussed briefly the other day, and just wanted some other thoughts on the subject.

I'm lead (and in a small gym with only a couple of feet between end line and wall). Shot goes up, rebounders go up, the ball pinballs very quickly off three or four arms and hands and goes out of bounds, whistling past my head, forcing me to duck. I make the call. "White ball." I am pretty sure I got it right, but there were a lot of things going on, including trying to protect my movie-star good looks.

My partner comes up and quietly says he is sure it went off white. I ask him, "100 percent?" and he says Yes. Good enough for me. I signal red ball, partner explains it to the white coach that he had a great angle, and game goes on no problem.

I didn't have a problem with my partner stepping in, although other officials have said my partner was out of line. What do you think?

[Bad Zebra]

This is a critical pre-game conversation topic. When I am the R, my conversation goes something like: "If you are 100% sure an OOB call is wrong, approach your partner and give him the info. Then, allow him to decide what to do with it". When I am the R, I encourage my partners get it right, as opposed to worrying about how it looks. In other words, change your call.

To me, it's a lot easier explaining to a coach that a partner had the better look and saw it definitively than living with a bad call for the sake of ego or appearance. I think your partner and you did the right thing.

My guess is that the other officials that said your partner was out of line are the ones that worry more about how they look than getting it right. I've worked with those guys in the past and at this point in my career, I try to avoid them. That attitude is generally insecurity on their part.

[Raymond]

I wouldn't say he was out-of-line. But personally I don't give help on bang-bang plays in front of my partner. For me it has to be something he clearly could not have seen or that he clearly missed. But that's just me.

[DRJ1960]

My group goes with the 100% rule. If you come to me, you are absolutely certain.

[BLydic]

Around here, your partner executed the pregame perfectly. Coming in, offering what he/she saw on the play and allowing you to change the call. Out of line would be coming in blowing whistle, pointing the other way, loudly proclaiming who the ball went off of, etc. Basically over-ruling your call without the discussion.

[ref3808]

I ALWAYS pregame this with my partner. If s/he approaches me I know right away that they are certain about their information and I can't think of a time I didn't use it.

I think most coaches appreciate seeing officials working together to make the correct call.

[BillyMac]

For out-of-bounds help, let's get it right. If I have no idea and I look to you for help, just give a directional signal.
No need to come to me, just point. If you don't know, give me a jump ball signal. If I signal but I get it wrong then
blow the whistle and come to me. Tell me what you saw and let me decide if I’m going to change it.

[tomegun]

Billy, I like all of that except blowing the whistle. If not absolutely necessary, I would leave that part off, but that is just me.

I like the straight forward approach:
Only come to me if you are 100% sure and it is something I obviously missed
Give clear information - "The ball went off white"
I will change it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

My guess is that the other officials that said your partner was out of line are the ones that worry more about how they look than getting it right. I've worked with those guys in the past and at this point in my career, I try to avoid them. That attitude is generally insecurity on their part.

Not nearly enough information to make this sort of judgment, IMO.

Originally Posted by tomegun

Billy, I like all of that except blowing the whistle. If not absolutely necessary, I would leave that part off, but that is just me.

I like the straight forward approach:
Only come to me if you are 100% sure and it is something I obviously missed
Give clear information - "The ball went off white"
I will change it.

Agreed.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Billy, I like all of that except blowing the whistle. If not absolutely necessary, I would leave that part off, but that is just me.

I like the straight forward approach:
Only come to me if you are 100% sure and it is something I obviously missed
Give clear information - "The ball went off white"
I will change it.

I like an even more straight forward approach - only come to me, and I will only come to you, when help is asked for.

[walter]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I like an even more straight forward approach - only come to me, and I will only come to you, when help is asked for.

So Rocky, are you saying if you see your partner clearly get an OOB call wrong, (ie: clear tip off of red with no other touch and partner says and indicates red ball), you are not going to him/her unless he/she asks for help? If not, why?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by walter

So Rocky, are you saying if you see your partner clearly get an OOB call wrong, (ie: clear tip off of red with no other touch and partner says and indicates red ball), you are not going to him/her unless he/she asks for help? If not, why?

Yep.

My partner is right there and I am across/down the court. He/she has a better look at the play than I do...if everyone starts yelling and jumping around, my partner will ask me for help and I will give them any information I have. If everyone starts jumping around and yelling and my partner is confident that he/she got the call right, they won't ask for help and my response will be "hmmm - he/she saw something I didn't".

[tref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Yep.

My partner is right there and I am across/down the court. He/she has a better look at the play than I do...if everyone starts yelling and jumping around, my partner will ask me for help and I will give them any information I have. If everyone starts jumping around and yelling and my partner is confident that he/she got the call right, they won't ask for help and my response will be "hmmm - he/she saw something I didn't".

Out of curiousity, when you lead the pregame how do you discuss "helping partners" on OOB calls?

What do you do when working with a guy like myself, who doesnt believe in that practice & is all about getting the play right?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Out of curiousity, when you lead the pregame how do you discuss "helping partners" on OOB calls?

What do you do when working with a guy like myself, who doesnt believe in that practice & is all about getting the play right?

Who said Rocky wasn't about getting the call right? He's about trusting that your partner will know if there's a chance he got it wrong.

Instead of trusting your partner to approach you if he sees something, you're trusting your partner to ask you if he thinks he may have missed it.

Either approach works if done by people who truly want to get the plays right, so I don't understand the subtle animosity towards those who approach it differently.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

Out of curiousity, when you lead the pregame how do you discuss "helping partners" on OOB calls?

What do you do when working with a guy like myself, who doesnt believe in that practice & is all about getting the play right?

I believe this would cover it in my pre-games:

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

... I don't give help on bang-bang plays in front of my partner. For me it has to be something he clearly could not have seen or that he clearly missed. But that's just me.

Regardless of how I do it, if you feel you need to help me on a play I'm going to accept your info and rule accordingly. But I'm not coming in on bang-bangs in front of you unless you ask for help.