Back court heat bulls game

[APG]

Originally Posted by Toren

Great explanation.

I think the non-calling official had a terrible view of the play, it looked like he got caught moving toward the endline, then couldn't see the play at all, so instead of guessing he didn't have a whistle. I didn't mind the play at all, he didn't see it, so we don't guess.

I did mind his body language.

If you notice, the trail official had a less than advantageous position because the lead starts a rotating to the opposite side...but the ball gets swung to the wing table side and the lead stops his rotation and he's back. The trail was in the process of rotating to the new slot/center position when the deflection occurred. I still think he ended up getting a decent enough look...and the slot/center official helped out on the play as well and had nothing as well.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Under NFHS and NCAA rules, this is a clear violation.

Agree.

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

It is not so under NBA rules. The defense bats the ball away...thus that ends team control. Turiaf then tries to control the ball..the first initial push to the floor could be considered control...thus he had a positive position in the frontcourt with the ball and the subsequent actions would constitute a backcourt violation.

If the calling official did not believe that constituted control, when Turiaf gains control of the ball, he's in the air...he has not attained a positive position with the ball. His right foot lands in the front, and his left foot appears as though it might have landed on the midcourt line. This would mean he attained a positive position with the ball in the backcourt...which in this case would be legal.

For that matter, I don't even think he had control until the last time he picked it up to pass it to his teammate (simultaneous with him stepping back into the frontcourt). His hands were never solidly on the ball until after he dropped it, hopped, and landed fully in the backcourt.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If you notice, the trail official had a less than advantageous position because the lead starts a rotating to the opposite side...but the ball gets swung to the wing table side and the lead stops his rotation and he's back. The trail was in the process of rotating to the new slot/center position when the deflection occurred.

Agreed

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I still think he ended up getting a decent enough look...and the slot/center official helped out on the play as well and had nothing as well.

I think his body language suggests that he was straining to see the play. Also if you notice in the initial live play, right before it cuts, he starts to make a motion like the ball got tipped. It's extremely hard to see and I had to rewind it several times to make it out, not sure why he did that mechanic.

I thought the no call, no guess, is the correct call. The C definitely had the better look and was helping.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Toren

Agreed



I think his body language suggests that he was straining to see the play. Also if you notice in the initial live play, right before it cuts, he starts to make a motion like the ball got tipped. It's extremely hard to see and I had to rewind it several times to make it out, not sure why he did that mechanic.

I thought the no call, no guess, is the correct call. The C definitely had the better look and was helping.

He did that tip to indicate that Turiaf could retrieve the ball in the backcourt...even though he was the last to touch the ball in the frontcourt. Team control, under NBA rules, ends when the defense deflects it and such you'll see officials in an NBA indicate a deflection by the defense when it involves backcourt plays.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

The play in question:



Under NFHS and NCAA rules, this is a clear violation. It is not so under NBA rules. The defense bats the ball away...thus that ends team control. Turiaf then tries to control the ball..the first initial push to the floor could be considered control...thus he had a positive position in the frontcourt with the ball and the subsequent actions would constitute a backcourt violation.

If the calling official did not believe that constituted control, when Turiaf gains control of the ball, he's in the air...he has not attained a positive position with the ball. His right foot lands in the front, and his left foot appears as though it might have landed on the midcourt line. This would mean he attained a positive position with the ball in the backcourt...which in this case would be legal.

Stop.......put down the telecaster! it's backcourt

And by the way, thanks for posting all these videos, well done, terrific discussion pieces

[APG]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Stop.......put down the telecaster! it's backcourt

You said yourself you have no idea "what they see/don't see in the NBA". As I said in my initial post, you didn't give enough information to say if the call was correct or not. No mention of there being a deflection by the defense (which is a BIG deal on this play). And after posting the play, it's not nearly as blatant as you made it out to be, and may even by a correct call according to NBA rules.

And no problem with the video...so much easier to talk about plays with video rather than A1's and B1's

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Stop.......put down the telecaster! it's backcourt

And by the way, thanks for posting all these videos, well done, terrific discussion pieces

I won't post much on here at all anymore, but this is not a backcourt violation in the least!!! Even if he did control it we deal with momentum as well. What APG said is right, but one thing he forgot involving positive position is that we allow for momentum... We don't expect a player to gather the ball at the last second and then stop on a dime just for backcourt purposes. If he re-gathers after the deflection but his momentum carries him into the backcourt that is a legal play under NBA rules.

Like it or don't like it, it doesn't matter they applied the rule correctly.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

What APG said is right, but one thing he forgot involving positive position is that we allow for momentum... We don't expect a player to gather the ball at the last second and then stop on a dime just for backcourt purposes. If he re-gathers after the deflection but his momentum carries him into the backcourt that is a legal play under NBA rules.

#1, who is this "we" you speak of? Are you an NBA official?

#2, where can this "momentum rule" be found?

#2, so if this same play happens and he steps OOB instead of backcourt, the "momentum rule" allows his team to keep the ball?

[APG]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

#1, who is this "we" you speak of? Are you an NBA official?

#2, where can this "momentum rule" be found?

#2, so if this same play happens and he steps OOB instead of backcourt, the "momentum rule" allows his team to keep the ball?

Btaylor is an NBA D-League official and has worked NBA games as of this year. And when he talks about momentum, it only deals with backcourt calls and only in specific situations...when the ball is loose (as in no team control), from a jump ball, a throw-in in the final two minutes of the 4th/OT, or a defensive player.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

#1, who is this "we" you speak of? Are you an NBA official?

#2, where can this "momentum rule" be found?

#2, so if this same play happens and he steps OOB instead of backcourt, the "momentum rule" allows his team to keep the ball?

He's been in the D-League for a little while now and he has worked NBA games this season.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If you notice, the trail official had a less than advantageous position because the lead starts a rotating to the opposite side...but the ball gets swung to the wing table side and the lead stops his rotation and he's back. The trail was in the process of rotating to the new slot/center position when the deflection occurred. I still think he ended up getting a decent enough look...and the slot/center official helped out on the play as well and had nothing as well.

Thanks for posting the video. And first thing I thought when viewing is that this play was not some cut-n-dry backcourt as was first presented. I had no idea about the momentum aspect of the BC rule but I knew TC rules are different.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Thanks for posting the video. And first thing I thought when viewing is that this play was not some cut-n-dry backcourt as was first presented. I had no idea about the momentum aspect of the BC rule but I knew TC rules are different.

I agree, wasn't close to being as blatant as we were lead to believe at first. And turns out, it was a no call correct.

And the momentum aspect only applies when the ball is loose, from a throw-in in the final two minutes of the 4th and/or OT, when the defense steals the ball, or from a jump ball.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Btaylor is an NBA D-League official and has worked NBA games as of this year.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

He's been in the D-League for a little while now and he has worked NBA games this season.

Who are you guys, his press secretaries? He can't answer his own questions?

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

And when he talks about momentum, it only deals with backcourt calls and only in specific situations...when the ball is loose (as in no team control), from a jump ball, a throw-in in the final two minutes of the 4th/OT, or a defensive player.

Great. Again, rule reference please.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Who are you guys, his press secretaries? He can't answer his own questions?



Great. Again, rule reference please.

The rule in question:

Rule 4, Section V

g. Frontcourt/backcourt status is not attained until a player with the ball has established a positive position in either half during (1) a jump ball, (2) a steal by a defensive player, (3) a throw-in in the last two minutes of the fourth period and/or any overtime period or (4) any time the ball is loose

Positive position, as btaylor told you, deals with momentum.

[bgredmchn]

Originally Posted by grunewar

My son tells me ESPN's NOT Top Ten today had Lebron taking six steps from the top of the key before getting fouled....said he carried the ball like a football. Haven't found THAT video yet. But, I'm a lookin!

Not the NOT TOP 10, but the play that got him there.