Camp Feedback

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge

The rules are created by people that do not have to enforce them. That is
why we have POEs with "moving screen" language as the justification to call
more "illegal screens." Because if officials were making and writing the
rules, we might not have 20 changes every year and possibly more common
sense in the use of mechanics.
Peace

I've seen you make this assertion several times. Of the two regional representatives on past rule committees who's names I know, they were both officials (or retired officials). The two were Howard Mayo and Violet Palmer.

From what I understand the rules committee is made up of a chairman, regional representatives (8) plus 1 rep from the NF coaches association and 1 from the NF officials association.

Doing a little research, based on a copy of the 95-96 committee members that I happen to have handy, I found the following credentials:

Chairman	Rick Wulkow	NCAA Men's D1 official
Section 1	Peter Webb	longtime area basketball official Maine Commissioner of Basketball National Federation of Officials Association's Distinguished Official Award President of the national IAABO group for 2001-2002
Section 2	Artie Walker	Coach
Section 3	Mac Chauvin	NCAA Men's D1 Official
Section 4	Nate Hampton	State Activities Assistant Director
Section 5	Jim Robinson	Not sure? Too many Jim Robinsons to tell
Section 6	Bob Ottewill	State Activities Commissioner
Section 7	Violet Palmer	NBA Official
Section 8	Larry Klaassen	State Activities Commissioner
NFICA Rep	Rebecca Morrisey	Coach
NFIOA Rep	Ronald Michaelson	IHSA, Springfield Officials Assn.

So, at in 95-96, There were 2 NCAA D1 Men's officials, 1 future NBA official, 2 HS Officials, 3 State Commissioners/Directors, 2 Coaches, and one unknown. It's certainly possible I've missed some of the credentials for some of them too. I couldn't tell the background of the state commissioners. They may have been coaches, officials, or neither. Even if they (and the unknown) were all coaches, that would make it 5 officials to 6 others on the committee.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

So, at in 95-96, There were 2 NCAA D1 Men's officials, 1 future NBA official, 2 HS Officials, 3 State Commissioners/Directors, 2 Coaches, and one unknown. It's certainly possible I've missed some of the credentials for some of them too. I couldn't tell the background of the state commissioners. They may have been coaches, officials, or neither. Even if they (and the unknown) were all coaches, that would make it 5 officials to 6 others on the committee.

Who is on there now? What is the breakdown now? There are currently 12 committee members on the board. I know the editor is a D1 Women' Official, Mary Struckoff (from Illinois). Marty Hickman is from the State of Illinois and the IHSA Executive Director and is not an official in basketball. Maybe Hickman has officiated in the past, but he is not know in our state for that. Now I am sure that there are officials on the board other than Mary Struckoff, but I see you missed the point. Because the entire board are not officials. You have coaches and administrators (that might have never played the game) making decisions on what is a good rule or what is not a good rule or the wording of the rules. Let us say for argument sake you have only 4 officials on the current board. That leaves 8 committee members that are not officials. So any vote, the officials can be out voted for any changes easily (if we use the hypothetical break down). And just because you have some officials on the board, does not mean that every situation is made in the best interest of the folks that have to actually enforce the rules. In my state alone we have administrators making decisions that officials have almost no imput on and it affects us the most. We do have an Official's Advisory Committee, but any suggesting has to go thru an AD's Committee and a Coaching Committee to have something pass. And they only allow imput from one official from a specific sport. Basketball can have different concerns then Football, but that is not the set up. How long have officials been doing the "kick violation" mechanic, and just now this is being brought in as a mechanic? That alone tells me that there is some disconnect with what is done "in the field" than what is going on in these meetings. I can hardly find an official that advocates "birddogging" for all fouls, but for some reason we still have to do it according to NF rules and mechanics.

If you were to even look at the NCAA Men's and Women's Committees, can you tell me how many officials are present?

I have never said there are abosolutely, no officials on the committee. But officials in my opinion cannot be making decisions with one or two members. If the majority of those are not officials, then officials are not making the decisions. They might have imput, they might have a voice, but if the majority does not want to listen to them, they do not have to. I have been on committees as a representative of a group and was easily out voted because of I no one cared about the faction I was representing.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
So, at in 95-96, There were 2 NCAA D1 Men's officials, 1 future NBA official, 2 HS Officials, 3 State Commissioners/Directors, 2 Coaches, and one unknown. It's certainly possible I've missed some of the credentials for some of them too. I couldn't tell the background of the state commissioners. They may have been coaches, officials, or neither. Even if they (and the unknown) were all coaches, that would make it 5 officials to 6 others on the committee.

Originally posted by JRutledge
Who is on there now? What is the breakdown now? There are currently 12 committee members on the board. I know the editor is a D1 Women' Official, Mary Struckoff (from Illinois). Marty Hickman is from the State of Illinois and the IHSA Executive Director and is not an official in basketball. Maybe Hickman has officiated in the past, but he is not know in our state for that.

Actually, there are 11 and neither of these two are on the committee. Mary Struckhoff may be the editor, but she is not on the rules committee.

See: http://www.cifccs.org/Playing%20Rule...%20Minutes.pdf for the minutes of this year's NHFS Basketball Rules committee meeting.

They are,
Chair: Larry Boucher, official
Sect. 1: Bob Pugh, official
Sect. 2: Jack Baly, official
Sect. 3: Wanda Gilliland, coach
Sect. 4: Theresia Wynns, official
Sect. 5: Bill Lewis, unknown
Sect. 6: Marvin Barbee, official
Sect. 7: Gary Whelchel, official
Sect. 8: Jim Wilund, official
NFCA: Kathy McGee, coach
NFOA: Ronnie Girouard, official

Also present as guests in the rules meetings were Mary Struckhoff, Lori Brown, Ed Bilik, Peter Webb, and Bill Top. I think 3-4 of these are/were officials.

By my count of those actually on the current committee, thats 8 officials, 2 coaches, and 1 unknown. Two of the officials are new this year so it could have been only 6 last year since I'm not sure who they replaced. On several of these, I found evidence of extensive experience at respectable levels including state tournaments, college, etc.

Originally posted by JRutledge
... but I see you missed the point. Because the entire board are not officials. You have coaches and administrators (that might have never played the game) making decisions on what is a good rule or what is not a good rule or the wording of the rules. Let us say for argument sake you have only 4 officials on the current board. That leaves 8 committee members that are not officials. So any vote, the officials can be out voted for any changes easily (if we use the hypothetical break down). And just because you have some officials on the board, does not mean that every situation is made in the best interest of the folks that have to actually enforce the rules....

That's the point of a committee. The changes impact each and every category of member. Of course, with the official representing 73% of the committe, they could run the show.

Originally posted by JRutledge
I can hardly find an official that advocates "birddogging" for all fouls, but for some reason we still have to do it according to NF rules and mechanics.

Actually, the birddog is now officially optional. And, I know of several officials that, in the past, advocated it. I still advocate it selective use.

Originally posted by JRutledge
If you were to even look at the NCAA Men's and Women's Committees, can you tell me how many officials are present?

I've done my homework and looked up facts...why don't you give it a try.

Originally posted by JRutledge
I have never said there are abosolutely, no officials on the committee. But officials in my opinion cannot be making decisions with one or two members. If the majority of those are not officials, then officials are not making the decisions.

In the first group that I analyzed, the officials were the largest faction (5 Officials vs 3 State AD's vs 2 Coaches vs 1?). In all the cases you've mention, you've arbitrarily reduced their number to 4 and 1 or 2. So, by your reasoning, they would have the most influence.

Now, they are a dominant majority: 8 vs 3 others.

So, your entire argument is moot since the situation for at least the past 2-3 years has seen the officials in the majority on the committee.
~

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 18th, 2003 at 05:55 PM]

[JRutledge]

at the beginning of the NCAA book, both NCAA Committees are mentioned and lists the schools they are from. It is possible that there are some officials in the committee, but all are listed as representing schools. And some of them are obviously coaches like John Thompson III of Princton (Men's Head Coach) and Dave Odom of Wake Forest University (Men's Head Coach). So from all accounts on the NCAA side, they are coaches and administrators. And anyone can look this up for themselves.

Now if you claim they are all officials, where is the link or the background information on all the commitee members. Because other than you saying they are official, you said nothing about where they were from and how long they have been on the committee. No information other than you say it is that way. I just want proof or a place to look it up. I just read on the National Federation site not too long ago where a new member to the board was an administrator that had no officiating experience according to the press release.

BTW, I have heard that the NF has made all these mechanic changes, but I cannot find any information or evidence that these changes have taken place. The only change that is indicated on the site as far as I can see is the "kicking the ball" mechanic. No information about any other mechanic changes that were listed on this board by someone from Wisconsin over a month ago. I sure would like to see the link to this if it is true about birddogging.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Two things:

#1 - Dick Knox, former committee member and chairman, officiates D-II and D-III basketball. I think the point is that officials and coaches alike should have a say in what rules are changes. It shouldn't be all one-sided.

#2 - I beleive this is the year that the NF prints an Officials' Manual. Since changes in mechanics are not really rules, I would anticipate any chages to show up in the Manual.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge
at the beginning of the NCAA book, both NCAA Committees are mentioned and lists the schools they are from. It is possible that there are some officials in the committee, but all are listed as representing schools. And some of them are obviously coaches like John Thompson III of Princton (Men's Head Coach) and Dave Odom of Wake Forest University (Men's Head Coach). So from all accounts on the NCAA side, they are coaches and administrators. And anyone can look this up for themselves.

I'd be willing to bet that they know a heck of a lot more about basketball than just about anyone here. Further, I'd bet that they take the input of Hank Nichols and other officiating leaders very seriously.

Of course, we were talking about HS official under HS rules.

Back to the original topic...

Originally posted by JRutledge

Now if you claim they are all officials, where is the link or the background information on all the commitee members. Because other than you saying they are official, you said nothing about where they were from and how long they have been on the committee. No information other than you say it is that way. I just want proof or a place to look it up. I just read on the National Federation site not too long ago where a new member to the board was an administrator that had no officiating experience according to the press release.

That's just like you to throw out an unfounded claim then ask for proof when someone calls you on it.

You could look it up just like I did on http://www.google.com. The searh I did was "FirstName LastName" basketball official. It's amazing what info is out there if you look. I'll even redo it and include the links here:

Chair: Larry Boucher, official, KIAC Commissioner and Supervisor of Men's Officials, http://www.kiacsports.org/news.htm

Sect. 1: Bob Pugh, official, listed in the box scores of several college games and NCAA regionals, http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/camps.html#rmfboc

Sect. 2: Jack Baly, official, IAABO Life Membership Bd. 11, DE, http://www.iaabo.org/life_membership1.htm

Sect. 3: Wanda Gilliland, coach

Sect. 4: Theresia Wynns, official, 6 Indiana state finals, http://www.hoopshall.com/news/2002/w_center_circle.html

Sect. 5: Bill Lewis, unknown

Sect. 6: Marvin Barbee, official, Oklahoma Supervisor of game officials, East Central Officials Assn, http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8 and http://www.ossaa.com/partners/ossaa/people/

Sect. 7: Gary Whelchel, official, NASO Chair and 23 years in state tourney, 7 finals, http://www.naso.org/PressReleases/st83.htm

Sect. 8: Jim Wilund, official, listed as an official in several small college box scores, http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...=Google+Search

NFCA: Kathy McGee, coach

NFOA: Ronnie Girouard, official, President of TASO (Texas Officials), http://basketball.officiating.com/x/article/2162



If that's not enough info for you nothing will convince you that you were wrong in claiming people other than officials are changing/writing the rules.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


I'd be willing to bet that they know a heck of a lot more about basketball than just about anyone here. Further, I'd bet that they take the input of Hank Nichols and other officiating leaders very seriously.

Of course, we were talking about HS official under HS rules.

Back to the original topic...

Actually Camron, my comments were not just about NF Committees. The term "Do not be a rulebook official," was from a camp that was run by a D1 Official. All the camps I have attended were for college and HS evaluation. I just used a HS reference, when I could easily do the same for the. The NCAA has no casebook for God sake!! So this really was a general statement and as far as I knew the NF of mostly coaches and administrators. In the NCAA Rulebook it is clear the background or at least the representation of the individuals. And 100% are represented by schools from Div 1-3. It is very possible that there are a couple of officials in on the board, and be an actual official. Rick Hartzell is a Division 1 Official and is the Athletic Director of Northern Iowa. So it is possible that he could represent (not currently on the board) his school and add a tremendous amount of incite with his officiating background and experience (I do not know the man, but it is a possiblity).

Originally posted by Camron Rust

If that's not enough info for you nothing will convince you that you were wrong in claiming people other than officials are changing/writing the rules.

Another thing you need to be aware of Camron, you say all these things about who are officials and who are not officials but it does not mean they represent the interests of official the best way. Mary Struckoff was an Asst. Executive Director with the IHSA and if you here people talk about her, her name is mud. You would have thought that she pissed off every single official in the state. Under her watch she changed (not her personally I am sure) the rating system and changed how official got playoff games in all sports. This pissed off almost all the veterans that I know and many assignors and other officials that had some influence. I personally never had a problem with anything she did, but just talk to almost any official and it is negative. I told someone about some of the changes that might come in with mechanics and coverage and the first thing this official said, "it must be something Mary did." And it was not in the most kind of tone. So whatever relationship she had with official in this state, it was not seen as a good one. And you can ask any official and hear that in their voice from Illinois and see in on their face. So the point is that just because you are an official, does not mean that you represent officials or make rules that are easily enforced or do not come without major opposition when we enforce them. I just feel that if you have more official, you can have better rules written and more common sense in the rules when explained. And for this board to put "moving screen," in the POEs for the past few years is ridiculous. Excuse me if I would think that language would come from coaches, officials should know better. Because that term is the first thing coaches yell regardless of contact on all screens they see. I can understand that it is an explaining tool, but to describe an Illegal screen as a "moving screen" in the rulebook only makes our job harder. But then again this is just my opinion. You might have a different point of view. Either way the rules are not accepted by everyone that views them at the beginning of the year and we have found on tapes rules that were out right wrong. I can think of an "over and back" play on a throw-in on the last tape that the NF said was a violation, when the rulebook suggests otherwise. But then again, the decisions they make are above scrutiny.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Another thing you need to be aware of Camron, you say all these things about who are officials and who are not officials but it does not mean they represent the interests of official the best way.

That's b/c he was merely refuting your false claim. Your false claim was that officials are either underrepresented or completely unrepresented on the rule-making committees. Camron has shown that statement to be false.

Now, if you'd like to discuss whether the officials on the committees represent the interests of all officials in the best way possible, that's a different topic. Start a new thread.

[rockyroad]

Hey Chuck - what's the over/under on whether Rut will admit he was wrong this time??? I know this guy in Seattle named Nueheisel who's looking to drop some money someplcae...say like 5 grand or so!!

And Tony - I love "A River Runs Through It"...just watched it with my sons about 2 weeks ago!!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


That's b/c he was merely refuting your false claim. Your false claim was that officials are either underrepresented or completely unrepresented on the rule-making committees. Camron has shown that statement to be false.

Maybe if I was only talking about the NF, but I was not. But then again, I have not seen anyone refute anything I said about the NCAA, but I wonder why?

Originally posted by ChuckElias


Now, if you'd like to discuss whether the officials on the committees represent the interests of all officials in the best way possible, that's a different topic. Start a new thread.

I will remember that like I will remember the ripping (which is still very funny to me) I got for "not reporting the number of timeouts to the coach." I am still waiting for an IHSA Clinician to tell me "you must tell them, no matter what." That has not happen yet in the 3 camps I have attended so far (still have 3 more to attend), despite what any other Illinois Official tells you here. But then again, I am sure someone will tell me how wrong I am and what I should do on the court, despite what the people I work for say. Maybe I should ignore this clinican when he said, "there is no reason for you to go over to the table, but to get your *** chewed!!" But we all digress.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Maybe if I was only talking about the NF, but I was not. But then again, I have not seen anyone refute anything I said about the NCAA, but I wonder why?

Well, your initial asertion

Originally posted by JRutledge

The rules are created by people that do not have to enforce them. That is why we have POEs with "moving screen" language as the justification to call more "illegal screens." Because if officials were making and writing the
rules, we might not have 20 changes every year and possibly more common sense in the use of mechanics.
Peace

is, as far as I can tell, in reference to the NFHS POE 4C from 2001-2002.

4C. Screens

• Moving screens

1. The screener must be stationary upon contact.
2. It is not a moving screen unless there is contact.

Further, I'd venture to say that 90% or more of the people on this board work HS ball (considering that a few coaches and fans are present). I'd also venture that less than 25% work any form of college.

The focus of the debate was on who was on the HS committee. That is who you asked about and what the breakdown was. Once you were disproven there, you attempted disparage the motives and quality of the members of the committee.

Even if we consider the NCAA, your initial statement made no such claim. It was that non-officials are making the rules---to which I provided a clear counter example.



Just found a really thorough biography on each of the current HS committee members:

http://www.cifccs.org/Playing%20Rule...tee%20Bios.pdf

Found that Bill Lewis is also an official...makes it 9 to 2.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
4C. Screens

• Moving screens

1. The screener must be stationary upon contact.
2. It is not a moving screen unless there is contact.

Assume what you like, but that is not what coaches mean, nor the way folks here have interpreted that phrase. I have never heard someone come here and ask, "what is the rule on moving screen?" and several official not make a point there is no such rule. Or at the very least, qualify what "moving screen" is or is not according to the rules. Stick around a while and some coach or fan will ask about "moving screens," and you will see how much the good folks here let that phrase go unanswered.

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Further, I'd venture to say that 90% or more of the people on this board work HS ball (considering that a few coaches and fans are present). I'd also venture that less than 25% work any form of college.

Well that is in interesting guess, but the post was about camp feedback, not the HS or College variety specifically. My state requires officials to go to camp for HS, but many are college oriented or have college evaluation aspects to them. I will assume that my state is in the minority based on what has been said here or other discussion boards. Because most here talk about going out of state or doing some travel to attend a camp of any kind. I might be wrong, but I have never traveled out of state to attend a camp to be evaluated for college. Some cases I just go to the heart of Chicago, across from U.S. Cellular Field and I am attending a basketball camp (two at that location this summer). I have already attended three camps, two of them had college assignors present. And the one camp that w_sohl posted about, is a HS camp run by a assignor that assigns a college conference as well. Two college assignors will be in attendance of this camp BTW.

Originally posted by Camron Rust

The focus of the debate was on who was on the HS committee. That is who you asked about and what the breakdown was. Once you were disproven there, you attempted disparage the motives and quality of the members of the committee.

Well Camron, I rarely attend HS only camps anymore, so if you want to tell me what I was talking about when I attend camp, that is fine. But then again, you can interpret them anyway you like. I stand by my comments about the things they come up with. I am not the only one and have no problem stating it. It is not like they are above critisim or being judged by the stuff they come up with. I have already had coaches and officials say, "why did the change that?" Or even better, "I wish they have never changed that?" Both those statements happen this summer alone. Matter of fact, this week.

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Even if we consider the NCAA, your initial statement made no such claim. It was that non-officials are making the rules---to which I provided a clear counter example.

Just because you are narrowly focused, do not blame me for it. I did not make a specific statement, I made a general one. That is what is mean by committees. I officiate under the rules of 3 different committees. If you officiate under one, than I can see why you would only be thinking of one. But I do not, so I have to consider the rules from HS, Women and Men's Basketball.

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Just found a really thorough biography on each of the current HS committee members:

http://www.cifccs.org/Playing%20Rule...tee%20Bios.pdf

Found that Bill Lewis is also an official...makes it 9 to 2.

I appreciate the time you have put in on this subject. I hope it was worth it and you are happy. Because now we can keep score, the NF has 9-2 in favor of the official. The NCAA Men's zero listed officials on their board. The NCAA Women's committee has 0 officials on the committee (at least listed). I think I saw Steve Palarmo (former MLB Umpire and I believe current Director of Umpires for the MLB) of MLB made the same claim about rules during the World Series last year, when Tim McCarver ripped an umpire for not ruling on something he thought should have resulted in an extra base. Palarmo said, "we do not make the rules, so you have this kind of confusion." You can say similar things in other sports like the NFL Competition Committee which has mostly coaches and Executives and creating rules like the "Tuck rule," but then complaining when the rule this body writes makes little or no sense. I could probably give many other examples, but you get the idea. If you do not, Oh well. Happy camping.

Peace

[rockyroad]

I think Neuheisel's money is safe on this one Camron...he's never gonna step up and admit he was wrong...he spends too much time looking for ways out...everyone else here knows you showed him up...let it go.

[zebraman]

Man, what a low blow to Neuheisel. Just when you think the embattled Husky coach has reached rock bottom, you mention in the same breath as Rut. Ouch. :-)

Z

[whistleone]

My how this thread has spiralled out of control...

Here's what I learned at Dave Hall's Camp...
1) Hustle everywhere!
2) Work the entire baseline as lead.
3) Game management is a must to progress.
4) Move with a purpose.
5) Learn how to ask for help.
6) Find a mentor.
7) Hold your whistle.
8) Use the 80/20 principle. If it's 80% clean and 20% foul, let it go. Any less than 80%, call it.
9) When dealing with coaches, approach on your terms.
10) Fair does not mean equal.
11) If it's a flop, the head goes back first. If it's a charge, the head goes forward.
12) Learn these 3 phrases:
-Coach, you're right.
-I don't know, I might have missed it.
-Coach, I'm right. I know I'm right.