Incorrect travel

[Toren]

Originally Posted by tref

Pressing transition situation remember? Sorry but I dont stand on the endline in ther f/c while all 10 players & my partners are in the backcourt. By the time the offense achieved f/c status I still was not on the endline as no players were below the 3 point line.

This play was on the opposite sideline & opened up to tableside. The entire bench & grandma in the 19th row could see the defenders hand on the inside of the ball pulling the offense forward into a travel. Instead of the T position adjusting by stepping up & onto the court he got stuck in the mud & called a travel.
Tea would definitely had to have been served up if WE didnt get this play right. And I hate whacking on top of incorrect calls!!!

Do whats right for the game, dont let positioning deter you from offering assistance on an OBVIOUS incorrect call.

In situation #1, I'm thinking of giving a couple of "tweet tweets" and a verbal, held ball came first partner. So I'm basically just taking the play.

In situation #3, I don't mind offering information if you have it. Ultimately, the T has the responsibility to correct it, so if you say "there was clearly a hand on the ball that caused the travel" and the T says "I don't agree". But the point would be I'm handling this in a brief, concise conference if I felt I had a great look. But very seldom have I ever had a great look from the L at a trap that took place at the 28' line.

So from prior experience of not having had great looks at those plays, I'm probably leaving #3 alone.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tref

Perhaps, but you did read post #7. Frankly, if you arent going to help me with an incorrect call when there's something I can do about it, then dont bring it up in the lockerroom.
I can see waiting to discuss judgment on a ticky tack foul call because there is nothing we can do at the point. But we can fix incorrect violation rulings.

I'm glad the committee that passes us through from week 1 to week 2 dont have the same old school mindset as some Forum members. I was told those were good help situations from the guys that gave me games this week.

I'm far more likely than I used to be to offer help on these plays if I see it clearly.

Your further description of the above-the-rim play makes more sense. I'm assuming you let it go because the ball was released; but it seems to me the play should have been a held ball from the start. Isn't that T's call?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

L goes against the pregame & calls the above the rim play a travel. I was T & told him what I & just about everybody else in the gym saw.

I described #3 clearly a couple times already. No players in the f/c on this pressing transitions situation... what am I to do stand 94' away & wait for em to head my way? OR go find the next matchup?

Well, in #1 if you are the T and have the ball going to the hole you should have been on top of the play and called a held ball before the L's whistle.

For #2 you still haven't explained where you were and where the calling official was. But it's possible it was just poor judgment by the calling official or it's possible there was a travel and you misread the play.

For #3, don't remember seeing a clear description until after I asked, my bad if you were clear before my post. Don't remember anybody saying to be 94' away. I know I always help on the press. As described you should have been stronger in officiating your secondary since you recognized the C was out of position and you should have came in strong with a held ball call before the C had a whistle on the play.

In fact I still don't see a clear description of #3 since you originally say you were L and T missed the call then later say you were across the court and had a clear view.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tref

Yup, I did it just as you described yes on 1 & 3, no on 2.
Partners took the info & went held ball on both with no hesitation or "are you sure."

It's obvious that we are in the same area
They just dont hire 3 individuals out here, they hire a crew of 3.
I'm guessing our non-helpers would rather throw it in their partners face after the game as opposed to getting it right during the game... even in the play-offs

You seem to assume that everyone who is not going to throw his partner under the bus in a situation where he was NOT the primary and partner was, is looking to throw it in partners face.

In all 3 cases, why is your "great look" better than his? (Heck ... in number 3, why in the world do YOU have a great look and what were the other 7 players doing who WERE your responsibility at this moment --- you should have NO look on this play, as in - you shouldn't be looking at it!)

If you are working in a playoff game, surely your partner has earned the right to make calls in his area. If you are THAT much better that your looks from an inferior position should trump his looks from a superior position ... why is this guy on the court in a playoff game???!!!

[tref]

Originally Posted by Toren

In situation #1, I'm thinking of giving a couple of "tweet tweets" and a verbal, held ball came first partner. So I'm basically just taking the play.

Actually, when he popped, I & everybody else in the building just knew we'd see 2 thumbs up. When I saw the travel signal, coming over the top would not be the proper way. So I gave him the info & he corrected in less than 10 seconds. Same official as your "alley oop 3 point shot" btw!!

In situation #3, I don't mind offering information if you have it. Ultimately, the T has the responsibility to correct it, so if you say "there was clearly a hand on the ball that caused the travel" and the T says "I don't agree". But the point would be I'm handling this in a brief, concise conference if I felt I had a great look. But very seldom have I ever had a great look from the L at a trap that took place at the 28' line.

So from prior experience of not having had great looks at those plays, I'm probably leaving #3 alone.[/QUOTE]

Actually, due to the pushback in unison from an entire section on this play where he could not see the ball & the feet (which btw we shouldn't be calling travels unless you can see both of those things!) he had the look of relief on his face as I approached & again, less than 10 seconds WE got a BIG play right in a BIG game.

If any partner(s) dont agree, then it is what it is. As long as my immediate supervisor saw me attempt to provide the same info that shows up on film, Im covered! It would suck to get the call saying, "You're standing there with an open look. Did you see the held ball? Why didnt you help your team?"
"Dont expect a Sunday night email!"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

1. A1 jumps to attempt a layup, B1 caps the ball up high. The ball comes loose while both players are in the air, on the way down A1 regains control of the ball, then lands. The official calls travelling. Coach & fans go nutz & you have a great look.

2. A1 drives to the basket, gathers the ball then bobbles it & completes the layup. Official calls travel on the team that is up by 15+ & nobody says boo, but you have a great look.

3. A1 trapped by B1 & B2 just beyond the timeline in a pressing transition situation, the T has backs & butts. From L you clearly see B1 has a hand firmly on the ball. A1 moves his feet beyond the prescribed limits as B1 still has the ball. The T calls travel. Coach & fans go nutz & you have a great look.

In which of these win or go home game situations do you provide information to the calling official?

1. Where is the official who calls a travel? Where are you?
If you are primary, you should have a whistle. Then it's easy to come together and discuss on the double-whistle.
There are some situations in which the secondary official can create a double-whistle purposely just to allow for help with a play and there are other situations in which it just isn't a possibility.

2. Stay out of this one. It isn't technically correct, but so many people call this a violation that the coaches and players accept it. Just let your partner live and die with his decision.

3. Definitely stay out of this one. The player with the ball is not airborne as required for one part of the held ball rule, and the other part about undue roughness is a judgment call. This could be a travel BY RULE. Just because an opponent placed a hand on the ball doesn't mean that it is a held ball. Let your partner officiate the play.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm far more likely than I used to be to offer help on these plays if I see it clearly.

Your further description of the above-the-rim play makes more sense. I'm assuming you let it go because the ball was released; but it seems to me the play should have been a held ball from the start. Isn't that T's call?

No doubt, just as I'm about to call it, he beat me to it. I cant make everyone have a patient whistle...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tref

Actually, due to the pushback in unison from an entire section on this play

Please tell us why this matters?

where he could not see the ball & the feet (which btw we shouldn't be calling travels unless you can see both of those things!)

Agreed.

he had the look of relief on his face as I approached & again, less than 10 seconds WE got a BIG play right in a BIG game.

The more you talk the more I wonder why this guy was on the court.

As long as my immediate supervisor saw me attempt to provide the same info that shows up on film, Im covered! It would suck to get the call saying, "You're standing there with an open look. Did you see the held ball? Why didn't you help your team?"

Sir, your motivation is skewed. (And no supervisor I know would blast an official for not fishing in his partner's pond).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

Nobody is losing by 1 point in my games because of the IC plays I described.

Major problem with your thinking here. It is not YOUR game!

Originally Posted by tref

Talking about it after the game may help the official (who doesnt belong on the court this time of year if they dont know those basics) but it doesnt do justice to the GAME or the participants involved in the 1 point loss.

Might be a true statement, but this isn't for you to decide. Officials receive postseason assignments for all sorts of reasons. That is for those who are responsible for the assignment making or the design of the selection process. If those people don't like the decisions which certain officials make, then it is up to them to change who they select or the process itself. It is not the job of any one official working the contest to go over-rule the decisions of other officials on the court. Unfortunately, that seems to be the path that you have followed.
You can't officiate the whole court. There is a reason that basketball games are not assigned with only one official.
What about plays that are unseen by you during the contest? You need to learn to let others make decisions even if you don't like them. You don't get to make every call. That's just the way it is.

[MD Longhorn]

To Nevada: +1
To Tref - no offense sir, but there's a word used for officials that assume their calls from far away and out of position are automatically better than calls from his partner(s) from close up and IN position... That word is "arrogant". (And at least around here, another phrase that fits is "short career".)

[tref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Well, in #1 if you are the T and have the ball going to the hole you should have been on top of the play and called a held ball before the L's whistle.)

Everbody doesnt have a patient whistle...

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

For #2 you still haven't explained where you were and where the calling official was. But it's possible it was just poor judgment by the calling official or it's possible there was a travel and you misread the play.)

He was L & I was T... didnt offer any help because they were losing anyway & no pushback from the coach. And no, the film says I got it right

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

For #3, don't remember seeing a clear description until after I asked, my bad if you were clear before my post. Don't remember anybody saying to be 94' away. I know I always help on the press. As described you should have been stronger in officiating your secondary since you recognized the C was out of position and you should have came in strong with a held ball call before the C had a whistle on the play.

In fact I still don't see a clear description of #3 since you originally say you were L and T missed the call then later say you were across the court and had a clear view.

I think popping 1st in someone elses primary is a lack of trust. I trust you to get it right, until you dont, then help is offered.

3 Bs is the principle for calling outside of my primary:
- Be late (give them an opportunity)
- Be needed (no borderline violations)
- Be right (Im always trying to beat the film)

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Please tell us why this matters?)

Grandma always said EVERYbody aint crazy. You've been around long enough to tell difference between
a. the boo of disgruntled fans because you called it on their team
b. everyone reacts negatively in unison on a kicked play.

well, at least I hope you can tell the difference!

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Agreed. The more you talk the more I wonder why this guy was on the court.)

You gotta really suck to not get a post season game in week 1 around here.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Sir, your motivation is skewed. (And no supervisor I know would blast an official for not fishing in his partner's pond).

I know a few, but I better not mention any names

Live & die, ECA, ponds, are of the past.
Get the damn play right is where todays officiating is headed.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

L goes against the pregame & calls the above the rim play a travel...

Maybe the T went against pre-game and didn't make the held ball call that should have been made so the L judges that A1 voluntarily let the ball drop after being capped?

You said B1 capped the ball. You say the play was up high (above the rim plays). What were you waiting on to determine whether or not is was a held ball?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by tref

This play was on the opposite sideline & opened up to tableside. The entire bench & grandma in the 19th row could see the defenders hand on the inside of the ball pulling the offense forward into a travel. Instead of the T position adjusting by stepping up & onto the court he got stuck in the mud & called a travel.

Perhaps we need to discuss the held ball rule. From what I just read, this is a good defensive play and a travel is the correct call. Merely placing a hand on the ball when the player isn't airborne does NOT equate to a held ball BY RULE.

Originally Posted by tref

Tea would definitely had to have been served up if WE didnt get this play right. And I hate whacking on top of incorrect calls!!!

Do whats right for the game, dont let positioning deter you from offering assistance on an OBVIOUS incorrect call.

In your opinion a certain decision was correct or incorrect. I would disagree.

Originally Posted by tref

I can see waiting to discuss judgment on a ticky tack foul call because there is nothing we can do at the point. But we can fix incorrect violation rulings.

So you are okay erasing a violation, but not a foul? Why? What makes you believe that one can be overturned, but the other can't? What if your partner had called a foul in situation 3, when you could clearly see that the defender's hand was on the ball? Are you going to go offer information to him and tell him that it wasn't a foul?

Originally Posted by tref

I'm glad the committee that passes us through from week 1 to week 2 dont have the same old school mindset as some Forum members. I was told those were good help situations from the guys that gave me games this week.
....
If any partner(s) dont agree, then it is what it is. As long as my immediate supervisor saw me attempt to provide the same info that shows up on film, Im covered! It would suck to get the call saying, "You're standing there with an open look. Did you see the held ball? Why didnt you help your team?"
"Dont expect a Sunday night email!"

It seems that you should do what you need to in order to get the assignments that you desire. That is between you and those who assign those contests. For your sake, I hope that they share your judgment and opinions on rules and mechanics. I know several people who don't.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tref

...
I think popping 1st in someone elses primary is a lack of trust. I trust you to get it right, until you dont, then help is offered.

3 Bs is the principle for calling outside of my primary:
- Be late (give them an opportunity)
- Be needed (no borderline violations)
- Be right (Im always trying to beat the film)



..

Didn't you say you pregamed for the Lead to lay off above-the-rim plays? If so the play in #1 is not the Lead's call to make, it was yours. So which are we supposed to be going by in judging this play? Go by whose PCA it was or go by what was established in your pre-game? Patient whistle has nothing to do with play #1. Lead saw a player go up with ball and land with the ball. Your overly patient whistle made him look bad.

And again with #3. You say you saw that the official was straight-lined and you say you clearly saw a held ball. Why are you waiting?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Major problem with your thinking here. It is not YOUR game!


Might be a true statement, but this isn't for you to decide. Officials receive postseason assignments for all sorts of reasons. That is for those who are responsible for the assignment making or the design of the selection process. If those people don't like the decisions which certain officials make, then it is up to them to change who they select or the process itself. It is not the job of any one official working the contest to go over-rule the decisions of other officials on the court. Unfortunately, that seems to be the path that you have followed.
You can't officiate the whole court. There is a reason that basketball games are not assigned with only one official.
What about plays that are unseen by you during the contest? You need to learn to let others make decisions even if you don't like them. You don't get to make every call. That's just the way it is.

Ummm okay, so you dont run the ballgames that are given you? Providing info is FAR from over-ruling, get a grip!
You should still be on a high from your C'Ship! Congrats again btw.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

To Nevada: +1
To Tref - no offense sir, but there's a word used for officials that assume their calls from far away and out of position are automatically better than calls from his partner(s) from close up and IN position... That word is "arrogant". (And at least around here, another phrase that fits is "short career".)

i'm gonna try this once more.

Originally Posted by tref

This play was on the opposite sideline & opened up to tableside. The entire bench & grandma in the 19th row could see the defenders hand on the inside of the ball pulling the offense forward into a travel. Instead of the T position adjusting by stepping up & onto the court he got stuck in the mud & called a travel.

Up close yes, in position with backs and butts, NO!

Pretty thin line between arrogance & confidence... yes, I flirt with the line. But what else would you expect from a flirt?
Thanks for your input all, but I'm done with this, I gotta game to prepare for