Karl Hess tosses two NC State players

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is wonderful, but that is a place of education and if they are calling people out by racial, sexual and other inappropriate comments like that, they would be gone. And those comments are not allowed in other aspects of any university life or on campus, why allowable here? And I have been called a racial slur and guess what you think happened to those individuals?

That is not ignorance, that is policy. I doubt seriously that the officials are told to ignore those kinds of comments even if you do not agree with them. I did not see the people at the school objecting and I am sure the conference did not either if those comments I mentioned above took place.

Peace

ESPN gave the big name anchor a 30 day suspension for Jeremy Lin comments, but the no name headline writer got canned. So, to see these guys milking this story is irritating, to say the least.
He got rid of those guys a lot quicker than if he had searched around to find game management, which should have been prominently seated at the table.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

Appropriate by who's standard's? Yours? How would you know what was appropriate unless you knew what was said that led to the ejection? I think most (read: ALL) officials...here or anywhere would give Hess the benefit of the doubt. He's probably earned that much based on his stature, experience and reputation.

Well Hess did not handle it in an entirely appropriate fashion according to the ACC. Surprised nobody has posted this yet but here is the statement from John Cloughtery:

“Under Rule 10, when circumstances warrant, an official has the authority to request home game management to eject fans when the behavior, in the officials’ judgement, is extreme or excessive. It’s unfortunate in this instance that ACC protocol of communicating directly with the home game management was not followed, and instead, a building security officer was solicited. We will re-communicate this policy with all officials to ensure proper protocol is followed.”

Obviously I wasnt there and as an official I am inclined to give Hess the benefit of the doubt. But based on the limited info I have I am of the opinion that Hess would have been better served by ignoring these two for the remaining 2:19 of the game. Or by following protocal and attempting to have a less visible conversation with game management. Also, what was a pretty one sided game without a lot of extracurriculars became very chippy after the incident including a double T.

Corchiani is claiming that both he and Gugliotta had their families with them and did not use any profanity or say anything particularly offensive. And I have a good friend who is the videographer for NC State who claims that the two were very vocal throughout the game but did not cross any lines that arent normally crossed by a good number of fans during any conference contest. Of course this is one side of the story and again I am inclined to give Hess the benefit of doubt.

But if I had to guess, I would think that given the opportunity to do it over again, Hess would like to have handled this a little differently.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by truerookie

The bottom line is Mr. Hess should not have interacted with them unless they were threatening him/partners physically.

It reminds me of a saying my parents told me while growing up.

"Stick and stones my break my bones but words will never hurt"

You are truly a true rookie.

[APG]

I think a number of us (including me) have stated that Hess didn't go about this the correct way if he wanted the fans ejected.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

...I am inclined to give Hess the benefit of doubt.

Exactly!

I'm amazed at the media and ADs, etc. that immediately come to the defense of the guys that got kicked out without having any knowledge of what actually occurred. Do you really think that these guys are ever going to admit wrongdoing?

I don't know the specifics of what happened, but I do know the official in question has 25+ years of Division I experience, has worked the Final Four several times and the championship game once. Do you really think that he got to where he is by having rabbit ears and throwing fans out of games? I'm sure that these guys crossed the line and he had a damn good reason to stop the game, in front of 17,000+ other fans, and have them ejected — that's not something you do lightly.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

I think a number of us (including me) have stated that Hess didn't go about this the correct way if he wanted the fans ejected.

I agree, but I also think none of us know what was said and why the issue was handled the way it was. I can see many things being said that would make me do exactly what he did without knowing or having a clear policy.

Peace

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I agree, but I also think none of us know what was said and why the issue was handled the way it was. I can see many things being said that would make me do exactly what he did without knowing or having a clear policy.

Peace

But there is a clear policy in place and Hess did not follow it.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Corchiani is claiming that both he and Gugliotta had their families with them and did not use any profanity or say anything particularly offensive. And I have a good friend who is the videographer for NC State who claims that the two were very vocal throughout the game but did not cross any lines that arent normally crossed by a good number of fans during any conference contest.

Corchiani also admitted in his tweets that they always get on the officials. But then complained that they were embarrassed in front of their children.

Gugliotta showed his maturity by tipping his cap to the crowd as he was leaving.

Fine example they set for their kids.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by truerookie

1. You don't know what I know.

Let's call it an educated guess:

Originally Posted by truerookie

I truly doubt anything racial, sexual and other inappropriate comments was said to Mr. Hess. If so, I am quite sure someone would have spoken up before Mr. Hess took the actions he took.. So thats quite a reach Mr. Rutledge.

Yep, you don't know. Looks like I guessed right. I'm shocked.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Pumpy25

As a spectator I understand to an extent what he did, but I don't know what they said either. I think it shows thin skin. Players/coaches get heckled all the time, why are officials above this and untouchable? Just looking from another view point, coaches and players have to answer for their mistakes, why not officials? Not saying he did bad during the game because I didn't watch it. I've always wanted to see officials be open to the media, not about specific calls, but for questioning and comments. People would get more insight on what the thought process is behind certain things.

I have no idea what was said or to whom; but I can tell you that the same comments will get you booted whether you say them to the officials, players, coaches, or table.

Heckling won't get you tossed unless it crosses a big bright line.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

But there is a clear policy in place and Hess did not follow it.

When you say clear policy, clear to whom? These guys do not work in one conference and one conference every night. If it was so clear why was it not followed? Must not have been clear enough.

Peacce

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When you say clear policy, clear to whom? These guys do not work in one conference and one conference every night. If it was so clear why was it not followed? Must not have been clear enough.

Peacce

To say it was not clear just because it wasnt followed is false logic at its worst. My understanding is that the policy is on paper and it's clear enough that Clougherty feels comfortable publicly stating, "It’s unfortunate in this instance that ACC protocol of communicating directly with the home game management was not followed, and instead, a building security officer was solicited. We will re-communicate this policy with all officials to ensure proper protocol is followed."

I know he doesnt work in the same conference every night but going through game management is pretty standard practice. And it's not like we are talking about an obscure conference that Hess works a few times a year. This is the ACC. Hess should know their policies. A lot of us don't work for the same assignors all the time but are still expected to follow the policy of where ever we are on a given night.

Like I said before, as fellow officials we are inclined to give Hess the benefit of the doubt. But I don't think blind support is a good thing. Even the best of us make mistakes, have moments we'd do over, etc. IMHO based on the limited info I have, I think Hess made a regrettable decision. Easy for me to say, I know. But that's my opinion. And what is pretty factual is that Hess did not follow stated ACC policy and protocol in how he handled the decision.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

To say it was not clear just because it wasnt followed is false logic at its worst. My understanding is that the policy is on paper and it's clear enough that Clougherty feels comfortable publicly stating, "It’s unfortunate in this instance that ACC protocol of communicating directly with the home game management was not followed, and instead, a building security officer was solicited. We will re-communicate this policy with all officials to ensure proper protocol is followed."

I am saying that when you work in a different building or conference every night it is possible that a policy can be misunderstood and possibly defaulted to what the rule says. And there is a policy on this from the NCAA, not just in the conference. And just because they say something in a statement does not mean it is entirely true or accurate. Remember they are trying to convince the public, not the staff what they were doing.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

I know he doesnt work in the same conference every night but going through game management is pretty standard practice. And it's not like we are talking about an obscure conference that Hess works a few times a year. This is the ACC. Hess should know their policies. A lot of us don't work for the same assignors all the time but are still expected to follow the policy of where ever we are on a given night.

So where do you usually go to get game management? Hmmmmmmm, maybe the table? That is where I would go unless I had knowledge of other locations of GM. And what does "This is the ACC" mean? OK the man works in the Big East too. He works in a couple of other small conferences too. What point does that make? Have you ever been to these staff meeting to know what is discussed or not discussed? I cannot even make that claim so why would I automatically believe this "policy" was talked about in detail?

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Like I said before, as fellow officials we are inclined to give Hess the benefit of the doubt. But I don't think blind support is a good thing. Even the best of us make mistakes, have moments we'd do over, etc. IMHO based on the limited info I have, I think Hess made a regrettable decision. Easy for me to say, I know. But that's my opinion. And what is pretty factual is that Hess did not follow stated ACC policy and protocol in how he handled the decision.

To me it is not about giving Hess the benefit of the doubt. I know that when I go to GM, it is usually at the table. I know an official that works at a table in the Big Ten and is the liaison for officials at one of the schools and he sits at the table. These guys were right behind the table. If this took place in the corner somewhere, OK. And since I do not know all the details or the nature of the comments, I tend to not go jumping to conclusions I did not witness personally. And the conference commissioner is not the same as the conference supervisor and their might be come conflict in the information they are talking about as well. Again I have no idea, but let us not act like GM was never contact in the matter. If you do not like that Hess stood there I get that, but let us not act like GM is somewhere special in the arena. That really is all I am saying.

Peace

[just another ref]

When the supervisor of officials for the conference says you "got it wrong" does anything else really matter?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

When the supervisor of officials for the conference says you "got it wrong" does anything else really matter?

Let me ask you a question. Did Hess get suspended? If not why?

I really do not care what he tells the public if nothing changes it must not have been seen as a big no, no as some would like to make it.

Peace