Out of subs, and a DQ

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Just this one IAABO board (IAABO Board 403, Catawba River (South Carolina) Basketball Officials Association. The interpreter is Paul Behr.

I shot off an email to him. I will let the Forum know if I receive any updated information from him.

If kids wouldn't miss the bus, we wouldn't be having this debate. What's the matter with kids today? We never missed this bus. We walked to all of our games, home, and away, in the snow, in our short shorts, uphill, both ways.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I shot off an email to him. I will let the Forum know if I receive any updated information from him.

Here's the email that I sent:

IAABO Board 403 Catawba River (South Carolina) Basketball Officials Association:

I have recently been made aware of an interpretation on the IAABO Board 403 Catawba River (South Carolina) Basketball Officials Association website. It appears under the heading 2009-2010, Plays of the Week, Week 4:

Play #4 - Before the game the referee notes that there are eleven team members of Team A warming up. However, there are twelve names in the scorebook. When the referee asks the coach about this, he says that one player missed the bus. The referee orders the player's name and number removed from the book stating that an individual must be present to have their name entered in the book. Was the referee correct?

Answer: The referee was not correct. Although the definition of team member implies that the individual must be present to be entered in the scorebook, it was not the intent of the NFHS to prohibit the inclusion of individuals in the scorebook who may be late or may not show up. (References: Rule 3.2.1, NFHS Interpretation)

This rule interpretation appears to be in direct opposition to an interpretation that appeared on the 2005 IAABO Refresher Exam:

73) Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warm up, the referee counts eleven team members for team A, but while checking the book, team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book, even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?

73) Yes: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1, Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4.

Here are the citations listed:

3-2-1: At least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty).

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Almost every one in my local board got this question wrong. We disagreed with the answer, and citation, back in 2005, and we still disagree with the answer, and citation. When I'm the referee, I'm pleased to see that there are more names in the book than there are on the floor during warmups. The opposite, more players on the floor than in the book, can, obviously, present problems.

If I recall, IAABO "International" gave us some type of explanation involving the definition of a team member as a squad member being in uniform and eligible to play. My local interpreter disagreed with this interpretation, and locally, we still allow more names in the book than on the floor, but that may not be the correct IAABO "International" interpretation, nor may it be the correct NFHS interpretation. As far as I know, we, here in Connecticut, have never been "officially" informed by IAABO "International", or the NFHS, of any other interpretation. As far as we know, the refresher exam answer still represents the "Law Of The Land", a "Law" that we, under the rational guidance of our local interpreter, have chosen to ignore.

I am not disagreeing with the interpretation on your website. I actually like your interpretation, it "fits" what we're actually doing here in Connecticut. Rather, I would like to know what your IAABO Board 403 Catawba River (South Carolina) Basketball Officials Association interpretation is based on? Have you received a new, i.e., newer than 2005, interpretation from either IAABO "International", or from the NFHS, and if so, could you please share that information with me?

Here's their response:

Regarding this play quite a few questions had been generated to the NFHS about the change that led to the situation where you couldn't have more names on the scorebook roster. As a result the NFHS issued a supplementary case play on their website. This case play never made it to the Case Book. The wording in the answer was lifted directly from that case play.

Anybody got the "supplementary case play" in context?

C'mon Nevadaref. "Now go do that voodoo that you do so well."

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's their response:

Regarding this play quite a few questions had been generated to the NFHS about the change that led to the situation where you couldn't have more names on the scorebook roster. As a result the NFHS issued a supplementary case play on their website. This case play never made it to the Case Book. The wording in the answer was lifted directly from that case play.

Anybody got the "supplementary case play" in context?

I looked at the NFHS basketball interpretations each year from 2005-06 to 2011-12 and there is no such play.

I searched the NFHS website for a case play with the word "bus" and did not find any.

I don't doubt the IAABO board in South Carolina...but I would really prefer a ruling that includes a date, link, PDF file...anything specific. I am fairly sure this would have been seen by others...including many members of this forum.

The interpretation is fine...and it is the one I am using. But if someone says it comes from a NFHS ruling, I sure would like to see that ruling.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I don't ever remember reading a Casebook Play or Approved Ruling that requires only names of the players who are present to be in the Scorebook. There has never been any rule in the NBCUSC, NFHS, and NCAA Rules Books that have prohibited the number of names in the Scorebook.

MTD, Sr.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I don't ever remember reading a Casebook Play or Approved Ruling that requires only names of the players who are present to be in the Scorebook. There has never been any rule in the NBCUSC, NFHS, and NCAA Rules Books that have prohibited the number of names in the Scorebook.

Yet the IAABO interpreter in South Carolina says there was an NFHS ruling on this subject -- and he used it as the basis for a rules quiz question on his board's web site. But he does not cite a year or anything else.

There has been an IAABO test question on this (as Billy and I have shown.) You say it is wrong. It would not be the first time. I'd just like to see a definitive answer to what seems to be a simple question.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

You say it is wrong.

There seems to be at least one incorrect answer on the IAABO Refresher Exam answer key almost every year. This was not one of them. After most of us on our local board got this incorrect, our local interpreter checked back with IAABO "International" and they stood behind their answer. That was back in 2005. Remember this is an IAABO, not a NFHS, "interpretation".

For you lucky non-IAABO guys, "Move along. There's nothing to see here".

What happens in IAABO, stays in IAABO.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I don't ever remember reading a Casebook Play or Approved Ruling that requires only names of the players who are present to be in the Scorebook.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Do you remember the 2005 IAABO Refresher Exam? Do you remember getting question #73 wrong? Do you remember being pissed that you got the question wrong, especially after you discovered that this was not an error on the answer sheet? Do you remember where you left your car keys?

I realize that it's not a "Casebook Play or Approved Ruling, but it does, or did, carry some weight among IAABO members.

73) Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warm up, the referee counts eleven team members for team A, but while checking the book, team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book, even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?

73) Yes: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1, Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4.

3-2-1: At least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty).

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Do you remember the 2005 IAABO Refresher Exam? Do you remember getting question #73 wrong? Do you remember being pissed that you got the question wrong, especially after you discovered that this was not an error on the answer sheet? Do you remember where you left your car keys?

I realize that it's not a "Casebook Play or Approved Ruling, but it does, or did, carry some weight among IAABO members.

73) Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warm up, the referee counts eleven team members for team A, but while checking the book, team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book, even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?

73) Yes: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1, Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4.

3-2-1: At least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty).

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Billy:

I remember getting the 2005 IAABO Refresher Exam. BUT, here in Ohio members of Board #55 were not required to take the exam because Ohio was not then and still is not an IAABO state (). The answer given for Question #73 probably didn't register with me because I knew it to be wrong and that somebody else would notify IAABO.

I received that Refresher Exam in early October 2004. I did not attend the Fall Interpreters Meeting in Cape Cod that year (last weekend of Sep. 2004). Junior was a FR in H.S., Andy was in 6th grade, Bonnie was attending college at night to finish her bachelor's degree, and she and I were both very active as volunteers with the various committees within the Toledo Public Schools, not to mention I had a full schedule of boys' and girls' H.S. soccer games that Fall as well as a full schedule of Fall baseball and fastpitch softball games.

I am sure I went through the exam and made notes (I am not climbing up into the attic to check what notes I made, .) but I really didn't take umbrage over the mistake because I was sure that somebody would correct it eventually.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Yes, and I do forget where I put car keys because I am a doddering bald old geezer. LOL

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am sure I went through the exam and made notes. I am not climbing up into the attic to check what notes I made.

C'mon Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Your attic has to be warming up by now. Take a couple of aspirin, and make the trip up those steps. Get your notes, and be sure to rest before you try to come back down. Or just toss the notes down to your better half. We would really like to see your notes regarding this question.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I was sure that somebody would correct it eventually.

Well? Have they? I hope that you weren't holding your breath. And by "they", I mean either IAABO "International" or, better yet, the NFHS.