Out of subs, and a DQ

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

There was actually an IAABO (not NFHS) refresher exam question on this about ten years ago. Please don't make me go and dig it out of my file, but is was something about a player missing the bus, and on route to the game. The IAABO (not NFHS) interpretation to this question was that the player's name was not to be written in the book. My local interpreter disagreed with this interpretation, and locally we still allow more names in the book than on the floor, but that may not be the correct IAABO interpretation.

I found this online today. It's from 2009-10:

Play #4 - Before the game the referee notes that there are 11 team members of Team A warming up. However, there are twelve names in the scorebook. When the referee asks the coach about this, he says that one player missed the bus. The referee orders the player's name and number removed from the book stating that an individual must be present to have their name entered in the book. Was the referee correct?

Answer: The referee was NOT correct. Although the definition of team member implies that the individual must be present to be entered in the scorebook, it was not the intent of the NFHS to prohibit the inclusion of individuals in the scorebook who may be late or may not show up. (References: Rule 3.2.1, NFHS Interpretation)

I ask if anyone else is showing up - especially when a team has few players on the court - to prevent handing out technical fouls later on. By the same token, when a scorekeeper - usally a kid - tells me "so and so" isn't going to play so I'm not putting them in, I tell them to put them in the scorebook. You never know what could happen. What if a fight breaks out and kid #14, 15 or even 16 on the bench has to play? To me it's a way of stopping trouble before it starts.

Which brings me back to the scenario of the coach saying "someone is in the locker room." Well, they're not on the bench and they're not in the book so why make touble for ourselves by waiting for this 'phantom' player?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I ask if anyone else is showing up - especially when a team has few players on the court - to prevent handing out technical fouls later on. By the same token, when a scorekeeper - usally a kid - tells me "so and so" isn't going to play so I'm not putting them in, I tell them to put them in the scorebook.

Of course, it doesn't matter what they put in the scorebook, only what they were given by the coach. If the coach gave them a lineup including all the players, then you still wouldn't administer a T later in the game if the late player shows up.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Of course, it doesn't matter what they put in the scorebook, only what they were given by the coach. If the coach gave them a lineup including all the players, then you still wouldn't administer a T later in the game if the late player shows up.

True enough though (SWAG) 85% of the time here, the book is populated by the coach and is what is considered as submitted.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JetMetFan

I found this online today. It's from 2009-10: Play #4 - Before the game the referee notes that there are 11 team members of Team A warming up. However, there are twelve names in the scorebook. When the referee asks the coach about this, he says that one player missed the bus. The referee orders the player's name and number removed from the book stating that an individual must be present to have their name entered in the book. Was the referee correct? Answer: The referee was NOT correct. Although the definition of team member implies that the individual must be present to be entered in the scorebook, it was not the intent of the NFHS to prohibit the inclusion of individuals in the scorebook who may be late or may not show up. (References: Rule 3.2.1, NFHS Interpretation)

JetMetFan: Thanks for finding, and posting this. I would love to see it in context. Conference call? Mid-season interpretation? Is this in Nevadaref's archives? Can you post the link where you found it?

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

JetMetFan: Thanks for finding, and posting this. I would love to see it in context. Conference call? Mid-season interpretation? Is this in Nevadaref's archives? Can you post the link where you found it?

Here's the link:
2009-2010 Week 4

It is from an IAABO board in South Carolina.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

It is from an IAABO board in South Carolina.

So, is this interpretation a local IAABO interpretation, an IAABO "international" interpretation, or a NFHS interpretation?

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So, is this interpretation a local IAABO interpretation, an IAABO "international" interpretation, or a NFHS interpretation?

Just this one IAABO board. The interpreter is Paul Behr. You can find his email contact on this page: http://www.district3hoops.com/index.htm

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

IAABO is a basketball officials association no different from any other official association. The best way to describe it is that it is comparable to the California Basketball Officials Association (CBOA). It is a large association with many Local Boards just like the CBOA. Its members officiate at the high school (NFHS), college (NCAA Men's/Women's), international (FIBA), and professional (NBA/WNBA).

The idea of an IAABO interpretation is just as illogical as the idea of a CBOA interpretation or a Wood Co. Bkb. Off. Assn. interpretation. Every Fall the Rules Editors of the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules Committees address the Interpreters of the Local Boards of IAABO because IAABO Interpreters just like all interpreters of any other local officials associations are obligated to issue interpretations that are true to the appropriate rules set.

MTD, Sr.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The idea of an IAABO interpretation is just as illogical as the idea of a CBOA interpretation or a Wood Co. Bkb. Off. Assn. interpretation.

What is illogical about this? If there is no clear interpretation of a rule or a situation, and the NFHS case book doesn't cover it, then my local interpreter has to give his/her own interp. That would be the ABC Officials' Org. interpretation. What is illogical about that?

When IAABO makes its exams and they put a screwy question on there that isn't addressed by any NFHS case play, the answer they provide (supposedly for ALL members) is the IAABO interpretation of that play. That's not illogical, that's a fact. It's how they expect their members to call that play.

The fact that those screwy interpretations aren't collected into one IAABO Case Book doesn't imply that they are not still interpretations of those plays.

Every Fall the Rules Editors of the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules Committees address the Interpreters of the Local Boards of IAABO

As far as I know, the NFHS Rules Editor does not address the interpreters at the Fall conference. I'm on the Executive Committee of my local board and I'm pretty sure (like 100%) I would have heard from my interpreter if Mary had ever been there.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

Just this one IAABO board (IAABO Board 403, Catawba River (South Carolina) Basketball Officials Association. The interpreter is Paul Behr.

I shot off an email to him. I will let the Forum know if I receive any updated information from him.

If kids wouldn't miss the bus, we wouldn't be having this debate. What's the matter with kids today? We never missed this bus. We walked to all of our games, home, and away, in the snow, in our short shorts, uphill, both ways.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I shot off an email to him. I will let the Forum know if I receive any updated information from him.

Here's the email that I sent:

IAABO Board 403 Catawba River (South Carolina) Basketball Officials Association:

I have recently been made aware of an interpretation on the IAABO Board 403 Catawba River (South Carolina) Basketball Officials Association website. It appears under the heading 2009-2010, Plays of the Week, Week 4:

Play #4 - Before the game the referee notes that there are eleven team members of Team A warming up. However, there are twelve names in the scorebook. When the referee asks the coach about this, he says that one player missed the bus. The referee orders the player's name and number removed from the book stating that an individual must be present to have their name entered in the book. Was the referee correct?

Answer: The referee was not correct. Although the definition of team member implies that the individual must be present to be entered in the scorebook, it was not the intent of the NFHS to prohibit the inclusion of individuals in the scorebook who may be late or may not show up. (References: Rule 3.2.1, NFHS Interpretation)

This rule interpretation appears to be in direct opposition to an interpretation that appeared on the 2005 IAABO Refresher Exam:

73) Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warm up, the referee counts eleven team members for team A, but while checking the book, team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book, even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct?

73) Yes: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1, Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4.

Here are the citations listed:

3-2-1: At least ten minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul (see 10-1-1 Penalty).

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Almost every one in my local board got this question wrong. We disagreed with the answer, and citation, back in 2005, and we still disagree with the answer, and citation. When I'm the referee, I'm pleased to see that there are more names in the book than there are on the floor during warmups. The opposite, more players on the floor than in the book, can, obviously, present problems.

If I recall, IAABO "International" gave us some type of explanation involving the definition of a team member as a squad member being in uniform and eligible to play. My local interpreter disagreed with this interpretation, and locally, we still allow more names in the book than on the floor, but that may not be the correct IAABO "International" interpretation, nor may it be the correct NFHS interpretation. As far as I know, we, here in Connecticut, have never been "officially" informed by IAABO "International", or the NFHS, of any other interpretation. As far as we know, the refresher exam answer still represents the "Law Of The Land", a "Law" that we, under the rational guidance of our local interpreter, have chosen to ignore.

I am not disagreeing with the interpretation on your website. I actually like your interpretation, it "fits" what we're actually doing here in Connecticut. Rather, I would like to know what your IAABO Board 403 Catawba River (South Carolina) Basketball Officials Association interpretation is based on? Have you received a new, i.e., newer than 2005, interpretation from either IAABO "International", or from the NFHS, and if so, could you please share that information with me?

Here's their response:

Regarding this play quite a few questions had been generated to the NFHS about the change that led to the situation where you couldn't have more names on the scorebook roster. As a result the NFHS issued a supplementary case play on their website. This case play never made it to the Case Book. The wording in the answer was lifted directly from that case play.

Anybody got the "supplementary case play" in context?

C'mon Nevadaref. "Now go do that voodoo that you do so well."