Backcourt Violation Question

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Correct, which was my thinking on why it was a BCV, although it looks like now I was over thinking it. The coaches argument stemmed from judgment on what constitues control. I judged the player to have control immediately based on the nature of the initial contact and the actions proceeding it. The HC argued that control couldn't exist until after that second dribble at which time the ball had BC status.

As I understand the rule now is that once team control is established anywhere on the court, the ball achieves front court status, and is touched last in the FC by the offensive team, and first in the BC by the offensive team, that it is a BCV.

Am I learning anything?

"control immediately based on the nature of the initial contact and the actions proceeding it"

When would you have allowed A1 or a teammate/coach to request a time-out and honor that request? That is when team-control existed.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

"control immediately based on the nature of the initial contact and the actions proceeding it"

When would you have allowed A1 or a teammate/coach to request a time-out and honor that request? That is when team-control existed.

I think you mean player control.

[SamIAm]

"control immediately based on the nature of the initial contact and the actions proceeding it"

When would you have allowed A1 or a teammate/coach to request a time-out and honor that request? That is when team-control existed.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I think you mean player control.

I didn't. But they would occurr at the same instance in the OP and the sitch below.

If no team control exists for team A, the first player on team A to establish player control also establishes team control.

(Not trying to lecture, but putting my understanding out there to be corrected if needed)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

"control immediately based on the nature of the initial contact and the actions proceeding it"

When would you have allowed A1 or a teammate/coach to request a time-out and honor that request? That is when team-control existed.



I didn't. But they would occurr at the same instance in the OP and the sitch below.

If no team control exists for team A, the first player on team A to establish player control also establishes team control.

(Not trying to lecture, but putting my understanding out there to be corrected if needed)

The reason I questioned your phrase-ology is b/c you're discussing granting a time-out. When the ball is live but the clock is not running then merely having team control is sufficient to be granted a time-out. But when the ball is live and the clock in running then player control is needed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

The four criteria for a backcourt violation (NCAA and NFHS):

1. Team control (and initial player control when coming from a throw-in)
2. Ball achieves a front court status
3. Team in control is last to touch the ball before the ball achieves a backcourt status
4. Team in control is the first to touch the ball after the ball achieves a backcourt status.

A2 didn't need to establish player control. As soon as A2 touched the ball, he gave the ball frontcourt status. We still have team control because TC continues during passing activity. A2 then was the first to touched the ball after it gained a backcourt status (by virtue of batting the ball to the division line), and was the first to touch the ball after it achieved a backcourt status.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The reason I questioned your phrase-ology is b/c you're discussing granting a time-out. When the ball is live but the clock is not running then merely having team control is sufficient to be granted a time-out. But when the ball is live and the clock in running then player control is needed.

That, and in the OP, team control had already been established in the BC.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The reason I questioned your phrase-ology is b/c you're discussing granting a time-out. When the ball is live but the clock is not running then merely having team control is sufficient to be granted a time-out. But when the ball is live and the clock in running then player control is needed.

Huh? The only examples of "live ball, clock not running" I can think of are on a throw-in (no TC), FT (TC, but also PC), or jump ball (no TC).

A TO can be granted when there's PC or the ball is "at the disposal" of the team. TC does not enter into it (other than PC also causes TC).

Maybe I'm missing something.

[Adam]

Disposal now equals TC as well. Maybe that's what he meant.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Huh? The only examples of "live ball, clock not running" I can think of are on a throw-in (no TC), FT (TC, but also PC), or jump ball (no TC).

A TO can be granted when there's PC or the ball is "at the disposal" of the team. TC does not enter into it (other than PC also causes TC).

Maybe I'm missing something.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Disposal now equals TC as well. Maybe that's what he meant.

Snaqs, you are wise beyond your years. That's what I meant. No PC when the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in but there is TC.

Even though I forgot to include there is one exception to "TC, live ball, clock not running" for which we can't grant a time-out, which is after the throw-in has been released but before it has been legally touched.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

"control immediately based on the nature of the initial contact and the actions proceeding it"

When would you have allowed A1 or a teammate/coach to request a time-out and honor that request? That is when team-control existed.

This is an interesting thought. I guess IMO there is a difference between when control begins, and when it can be first ascertained. For example...

A loose ball that A1 dives for, puts two hands on it, and as he’s sliding he calls time out. I'm reluctant to grant the request until he stops sliding, and I can determine that he's maintained control throughout. Just because he has two hands on the ball doesn't mean he has control of it. That said once the time out has been granted where did he gain control, when he first put two hands on it, halfway through, not until the end?
In my judgment, based on the entire sequence of events leading up to and after initial contact with ball (in reality only a second) the player established control with the first dribble and maintained it the entire time, thus player control began with the first touch.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Duffman

This is an interesting thought. I guess IMO there is a difference between when control begins, and when it can be first ascertained. For example...

A loose ball that A1 dives for, puts two hands on it, and as he’s sliding he calls time out. I'm reluctant to grant the request until he stops sliding, and I can determine that he's maintained control throughout. Just because he has two hands on the ball doesn't mean he has control of it. That said once the time out has been granted where did he gain control, when he first put two hands on it, halfway through, not until the end?

There's nothing magical about sliding and ending the slide. If he has both hands on it and the ball isn't rolling, then he is holding the ball.

In my judgment, based on the entire sequence of events leading up to and after initial contact with ball (in reality only a second) the player established control with the first dribble and maintained it the entire time, thus player control began with the first touch.

In your OP, A1 had player control and team A had team control when A1 had the ball in the BC.

The ball gained FC status.

A2 bats the ball and it gains BC status.

If you deemed the bat a dribble, it's a BC violation.

If you judged the first touch was not a dribble (no player control), then it's a BC violation if A2 next touches the ball again.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There's nothing magical about sliding and ending the slide. If he has both hands on it and the ball isn't rolling, then he is holding the ball.



In your OP, A1 had player control and team A had team control when A1 had the ball in the BC.

The ball gained FC status.

A2 bats the ball and it gains BC status.

If you deemed the bat a dribble, it's a BC violation.

If you judged the first touch was not a dribble (no player control), then it's a BC violation if A2 next touches the ball again.

Hmmmm so you are saying that the only debate is when the BCV occurred... on the first dribble when the ball hit the half court stripe or when the players foot made contact with the BC. I agree... now.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Hmmmm so you are saying that the only debate is when the BCV occurred... on the first dribble when the ball hit the half court stripe or when the players foot made contact with the BC. I agree... now.

Unless he is holding the ball, when/if his feet hit the backcourt is of no consequence. It's a violation when he touches the ball (first) after it went into the bc.

[Rob1968]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There's nothing magical about sliding and ending the slide. If he has both hands on it and the ball isn't rolling, then he is holding the ball.



In your OP, A1 had player control and team A had team control when A1 had the ball in the BC.

The ball gained FC status.

A2 bats the ball and it gains BC status.

If you deemed the bat a dribble, it's a BC violation.

If you judged the first touch was not a dribble (no player control), then it's a BC violation if A2 next touches the ball again.

BBR, Please see Camron's post, #38. It can't be a bcv when the ball hits the bc, from a bat, or a perceived "start of a dribble", because the bat occurs before the ball touches the backcourt, and a violation occurs for being the first to touch the ball, after the ball gains backcourt status. IOW, the bat that causes the ball to touch the backcourt, is only that. It's the touch, when the ball bounces up, and again, touches the hand of the player, which occurs after the ball gains backcourt status, that constitutes a bcv.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There's nothing magical about sliding and ending the slide. If he has both hands on it and the ball isn't rolling, then he is holding the ball.

No there is nothing magical about sliding, or dribbling either for that matter. My point is I don't think PC can be determined by looking at a still snap shot that encompases only that exact moment in time. PC is determined by a sequence of events that when put together give you a full picture. In the situation I had it was not possible to determin control until after the second and subsequent dribbles occured, however once they did it was easy to say she gained control with the first dribble.

The same is true if she would have caugth the ball with two hands. A player can momentarily secure or stop the momentum of the ball with two hands on either side it. What follows will determin if the player has control. The player can either continue to demonstrate control over the ball by raising it above thier heads and holding it away from the defense, or the player can have the ball immediately squirt out of their hands.

In the former you have PC, in the latter you dont, but both would look identical if you froze action when they first placed two hands on the opposit sides of the ball. It's the action prior to, and after the instant of that first touch that determins PC.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Rob1968

BBR, Please see Camron's post, #38. It can't be a bcv when the ball hits the bc, from a bat, or a perceived "start of a dribble", because the bat occurs before the ball touches the backcourt, and a violation occurs for being the first to touch the ball, after the ball gains backcourt status. IOW, the bat that causes the ball to touch the backcourt, is only that. It's the touch, when the ball bounces up, and again, touches the hand of the player, which occurs after the ball gains backcourt status, that constitutes a bcv.

Sorry but I don't agree with that interpretation. Player control exists so when a player in his FC steps on the line, it's a violation whether he's touching the ball or not. If he dribbles the ball on the line, it's no different. I have a BC violation.

You're welcome to another interpretation if you like.

Originally Posted by Duffman

No there is nothing magical about sliding, or dribbling either for that matter. My point is I don't think PC can be determined by looking at a still snap shot that encompases only that exact moment in time. PC is determined by a sequence of events that when put together give you a full picture. In the situation I had it was not possible to determin control until after the second and subsequent dribbles occured, however once they did it was easy to say she gained control with the first dribble.

The same is true if she would have caugth the ball with two hands. A player can momentarily secure or stop the momentum of the ball with two hands on either side it. What follows will determin if the player has control. The player can either continue to demonstrate control over the ball by raising it above thier heads and holding it away from the defense, or the player can have the ball immediately squirt out of their hands.

In the former you have PC, in the latter you dont, but both would look identical if you froze action when they first placed two hands on the opposit sides of the ball. It's the action prior to, and after the instant of that first touch that determins PC.

I disagree.

Based on your description, one dribble would never be a dribble.

Further, just because a player controls the ball and then loses control doesn't mean they never controlled it.