Backcourt Violation Question

[Duffman]

Great forum, I'm glad I found it. I had a back court violation situation come up a few weeks ago and wanted to get your take on it.

A1 is in backcourt being pressured by B1. A1 attempts to pass the ball into the front court where it is first deflected by B2 and a scramble ensues. During the scramble A2 is moving toward half court from the top of the key and gains control of the ball near midcourt with one hand by pushing it to the floor and dribbling away. During that first dribble the ball literally landed on the mid court stripe and the player I ruled back court as the ball and A2 had front court status, and A2 gained player (and team control for A) on the first dribble.

A's HC argued that control couldn't possibly exist on the first "dribble" and therefore it shouldn't have been a back court. I viewed A2 as having control of the ball beginning with the very first tap to the floor.

Thoughs?

[Adam]

A2 doesn't need to gain player control for the violation.

Team control is already in place. B2's touch establishes FC status. A2's initial touch is still in the FC. When his dribble hits the BC, it's a violation.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

A2 doesn't need to gain player control for the violation.

Team control is already in place. B2's touch establishes FC status. A2's initial touch is still in the FC. When his dribble hits the BC, it's a violation.

Am I mistaken in thinking that for a BCV to occur there must first be team control in the FC?

[APG]

The four criteria for a backcourt violation (NCAA and NFHS):

1. Team control (and initial player control when coming from a throw-in)
2. Ball achieves a front court status
3. Team in control is last to touch the ball before the ball achieves a backcourt status
4. Team in control is the first to touch the ball after the ball achieves a backcourt status.

A2 didn't need to establish player control. As soon as A2 touched the ball, he gave the ball frontcourt status. We still have team control because TC continues during passing activity. A2 then was the first to touched the ball after it gained a backcourt status (by virtue of batting the ball to the division line), and was the first to touch the ball after it achieved a backcourt status.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Am I mistaken in thinking that for a BCV to occur there must first be team control in the FC?

There must be team control in the FC. There doesn't need to be player control in the FC, however.

[Duffman]

I'm confused, aren't these last two posts contractic each other? Does TC in the FC need to exist before a BCV can occur?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Duffman

Great forum, I'm glad I found it. I had a back court violation situation come up a few weeks ago and wanted to get your take on it.

A1 is in backcourt being pressured by B1. A1 attempts to pass the ball into the front court where it is first deflected by B2 and a scramble ensues. During the scramble A2 is moving toward half court from the top of the key and gains control of the ball near midcourt with one hand by pushing it to the floor and dribbling away. During that first dribble the ball literally landed on the mid court stripe and the player I ruled back court as the ball and A2 had front court status, and A2 gained player (and team control for A) on the first dribble.

A's HC argued that control couldn't possibly exist on the first "dribble" and therefore it shouldn't have been a back court. I viewed A2 as having control of the ball beginning with the very first tap to the floor.

Thoughs?

I had to re-read this a few times. I fail to see when the ball goes into the frontcourt. Does A1 actually pass the ball into the FC, or as you stated, he attempted to, but failed?

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Toren

I had to re-read this a few times. I fail to see when the ball goes into the frontcourt. Does A1 actually pass the ball into the FC, or as you stated, he attempted to, but failed?

A1 (in the BC) attempts to pass the ball to A2 (in the FC). The ball is deflected by B2 (in the FC) giving the ball FC status. The ball is now loose in the FC when A3 gains control using a dribble which strikes the mid court line.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I'm confused, aren't these last two posts contractic each other? Does TC in the FC need to exist before a BCV can occur?

I'm not sure, but I think you're confusing player control and team control.

PC is required to establish TC; but not to maintain it. While A1's pass to A2 is in the air, TC continues.

TC must be in place.
The ball must gain FC status (it did this in your play when B2 touched it).
The team in control must be the last to touch it before it goes to the BC (A2's bat).
The team in control must be the first to touch it after it goes to the BC (A2's touch after the bat).

[Toren]

Originally Posted by Duffman

A1 (in the BC) attempts to pass the ball to A2 (in the FC). The ball is deflected by B2 (in the FC) giving the ball FC status. The ball is now loose in the FC when A3 gains control using a dribble which strikes the mid court line.

In that case, what Snagwells said

[Adam]

Think of this play:

A1 in the BC, passes towards A2 in the FC.
A3 was cutting in between (in the FC) and it strikes his leg and bounces back to A1 (in the BC).

The play is, for all relevant purposes, identical to yours.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I'm confused, aren't these last two posts contractic each other? Does TC in the FC need to exist before a BCV can occur?

No. All that matters is that there is team control, it doesn't matter which side of the court.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Duffman

I'm confused, aren't these last two posts contractic each other? Does TC in the FC need to exist before a BCV can occur?

No. Yes.

If there's TC in the BC, and the ball reaches the FC, then there's "TC in the FC". This can happen even if no one touches the ball in the FC. It can also happen if a player touches (but does not control) the ball in the FC.

There does NOT need to be PC in the FC to have a BC violation, or to establish "TC in the FC."

Some like to combine the 4 criteria (listed by APG in post 4, I think) into 3 (with the first being "TC in the FC"). Your confusion shows why I think it's better to separate them.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not sure, but I think you're confusing player control and team control.
PC is required to establish TC; but not to maintain it. While A1's pass to A2 is in the air, TC continues.

TC must be in place.
The ball must gain FC status (it did this in your play when B2 touched it).
The team in control must be the last to touch it before it goes to the BC (A2's bat).
The team in control must be the first to touch it after it goes to the BC (A2's touch after the bat).

This is correct, perfect, and thanks.

It's nice to know I got the call right, but unfortunate that I didn't get it right for 100% the right reasons.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Duffman

This is correct, perfect, and thanks.

It's nice to know I got the call right, but unfortunate that I didn't get it right for 100% the right reasons.

Another point to consider is that the 3 points rule for dribblers only applies to a dribbler going from BC to FC; not the other way around. So if you deemed A2's actions to be a dribble, he did establish PC in the FC just prior to the ball bouncing in the BC.