Dunk in pregame

[Adam]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Before we get into silly semantics, I *always* have the authority to have someone removed from the gym if I need to. Does anyone really question that?

Thank you.

[just another ref]

The point is first that you really don't. If the situation arises that a person needs to be removed, hopefully game management will back you.

"I want that guy removed."

"I'll take care of it. I'll talk to him."

Then what?

Second, and applicable here, hopefully we don't ask for removal unless a person's actions are waaaaay out of line. A dunk in warmups does not meet this description, particularly if that dunker was out there with the blessing of the coach.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

...
Second, and applicable here, hopefully we don't ask for removal unless a person's actions are waaaaay out of line. A dunk in warmups does not meet this description, particularly if that dunker was out there with the blessing of the coach.

If he is out there with the blessing of the coach then the proper penalty would be a T, correct?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If he is out there with the blessing of the coach then the proper penalty would be a T, correct?

It would be for me.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Where do you get the authority to toss anyone from the gym?

Really?

I guess we can't personally toss them but we can and do hold the game until game management has done so...which is effectively the same thing.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The point is first that you really don't. If the situation arises that a person needs to be removed, hopefully game management will back you.

"I want that guy removed."

"I'll take care of it. I'll talk to him."

Then what?

We don't start until he's gone.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Really?

I guess we can't personally toss them but we can and do hold the game until game management has done so...which is effectively the same thing.

As it should be. But what about the extreme example? What about an official who wants to eject the player's mother for stepping onto the court to check on an injured player as he lies motionless?

There are exceptions to everything.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by just another ref

There are exceptions to everything.

OK, what's the exception to that?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The point is first that you really don't. If the situation arises that a person needs to be removed, hopefully game management will back you.

"I want that guy removed."

"I'll take care of it. I'll talk to him."

Then what?

Second, and applicable here, hopefully we don't ask for removal unless a person's actions are waaaaay out of line. A dunk in warmups does not meet this description, particularly if that dunker was out there with the blessing of the coach.

If I ask for removal and the game management refuses, *we don't play*. Like I said, silly semantics.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not: Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts: Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Good citation from rockyroad. Bench personnel are "part of, or affiliated with a team". The crux of this thread is, what does it mean to be "part of, or affiliated with a team" ? Note that is says "a" team, singular, not "teams", plural. Many of us, including me, believe that there are six teams when we walk into a site, freshman, junior varsity, and varsity, home, and visitors. Others, like rockyroad, believe that there are only two teams there, home and visitors. We can debate this until the cows come home to roost, but unless we get an interpretation from the NFHS, or from our various state interscholastic sports governing bodies, then we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Billy, Camron, and a few others are staying on point, the Original Play involves a player wearing a Varsity uniform participating in the Jr. Varsity warmups. We are NOT discussing fans being on the court and dunking the ball. Fans are NOT Bench Personnel; if a fan comes onto the court and dunks the ball, get game management to take care of business; this is not a TF.

I would suggest that my post (#83 on Page #6 of this thread) explains best how to handle the OP being discussed.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Obviously you aren't familiar with 4-34, or you wouldn't be putting anything in your reply about their name being on a sheet...4-34 says nothing about a name having to be on a sheet.

What it does say is: ART. 2 . . . Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

So...since this OP was during an intermission, and the kid was dressed as a player, and he dunked - which is unsporting behavior - he is penalized as bench personnel. It's right there...all you have to do is read it.

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

The team/coach made the choice when they permitted him/her to participate in warm-ups. Call him/her an assistant coach, statistician, or trainer if you must, but if they're on the floor participating with the team, the team assumes responsibility for his/her actions.

I doubt they'd allow a parent to participate...but if they did, that parent just became part of the coaching staff/bench personnel for as long as they're on the playing court or bench.

Plus, I've yet to ever see a formal list of people that are team members or bench personnel until the 10-minute mark and, even then, it is not required that they list everyone, only those that may play....certainly not any one of the coaching staff or other personnel.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

Like Camron said, I don't decide anything. And - again - if you read 4-34, it says quite clearly "including, but not limited to..." So this is covered by the rule. The Coach allowed them out there, they are affiliated with the team, they became bench personnel.

It strikes me as quite odd that someone who ranted about ejecting a parent who comes on the floor because their son/daughter is lying there injured will NOT call a T in a situation like this.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A kid on the Varsity team is no more affiliated with the JV team than a parent sitting in the stands wearing the school colors.
Sorry, but you are totally wrong to penalize the team competing for an action done by someone not part of the team. You don't get to decide if he is part of the team, the team/school decides if he is part of the team.

So who is responsible for the people who participate in warm-ups with the team?

Hear a lot of what we can't or shouldn't do.