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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 12:20am
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One of the officials at our association meeting tonight
brought up a situation that maybe some of you can help me with. During the pre game warmups a person who is dressed in uniform dunks the ball. When going over to report the technical the coach informs the official that the person won't be playing or even listed in the book. Since you can't call a T on the player, how would you handle this? I told him that I would call a bench T with an indirect on the head coach and start the game with free throws and possession for the other team at the division line. Is the correct procedure for handling this?
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 12:50am
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Quote:
Originally posted by daves
One of the officials at our association meeting tonight
brought up a situation that maybe some of you can help me with. During the pre game warmups a person who is dressed in uniform dunks the ball. When going over to report the technical the coach informs the official that the person won't be playing or even listed in the book. Since you can't call a T on the player, how would you handle this? I told him that I would call a bench T with an indirect on the head coach and start the game with free throws and possession for the other team at the division line. Is the correct procedure for handling this?

Partially correct. The head coach does receive an indirect technical foul for the player dunking the ball, you are correct in that respect. But the technical foul is a direct technical foul against the player. If his/her name is not in the scorebook, you add his/her name. The adding of the name in this situation is mandatory. There is a sticky wicket attached to the adding of the player's name to the scorebook. If the dunking occured before the ten minute mark then you do not have a problem. But, if the dunking occured after the ten minute mark, then the player's team is also charged with an administrative technical foul for adding a name to the scorebook. You cannot get around adding the player's name to the scorebook.

At the least, the A1 will have one direct technical foul charged against him, the Head Coach A will have an indirect technical foul charged against him, and the Team A will have one team foul charged against its seven and ten team fouls NFHS rules). The game will start with Team B shooting two free throws and then have possesion of the ball for a throw-in at the division line (NFHS rules) or jump ball to start the game (NFHS rules).

At the least, the A1 will have one direct technical foul charged against him, the Head Coach A will have an indirect technical foul charged against him, Team A will be charged with an administrative technical foul, and the Team A will have two team fouls charged against its seven and ten team fouls (NFHS rules). The game will start with Team B shooting four free throws and then have possesion of the ball for a throw-in at the division line (NFHS rules) or jump ball to start the game (NFHS rules).
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 12:51am
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My last paragraph should have started: At the WORST...
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 01:10am
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Thanks Mark. Is there a casebook reference for this sitch?
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 01:18am
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All team personnel who are dressed are eligible as far as we are concerned, and therefore are team members. The team is required to give us a FULL list of team members, if they fail to do that they are violating the spirit of the rules.

However, before the game, at intermission, and after the game, all team members are bench personnel. That is why pre-game dunks are always linked with an indirect for the head coach. The direct foul goes to the team member.

Add his name to the book as Mark said.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 01:32am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by daves
One of the officials at our association meeting tonight
brought up a situation that maybe some of you can help me with. During the pre game warmups a person who is dressed in uniform dunks the ball. When going over to report the technical the coach informs the official that the person won't be playing or even listed in the book. Since you can't call a T on the player, how would you handle this? I told him that I would call a bench T with an indirect on the head coach and start the game with free throws and possession for the other team at the division line. Is the correct procedure for handling this?

Partially correct. The head coach does receive an indirect technical foul for the player dunking the ball, you are correct in that respect. But the technical foul is a direct technical foul against the player. If his/her name is not in the scorebook, you add his/her name. The adding of the name in this situation is mandatory. There is a sticky wicket attached to the adding of the player's name to the scorebook. If the dunking occured before the ten minute mark then you do not have a problem. But, if the dunking occured after the ten minute mark, then the player's team is also charged with an administrative technical foul for adding a name to the scorebook. You cannot get around adding the player's name to the scorebook.

At the least, the A1 will have one direct technical foul charged against him, the Head Coach A will have an indirect technical foul charged against him, and the Team A will have one team foul charged against its seven and ten team fouls NFHS rules). The game will start with Team B shooting two free throws and then have possesion of the ball for a throw-in at the division line (NFHS rules) or jump ball to start the game (NFHS rules).

At the least, the A1 will have one direct technical foul charged against him, the Head Coach A will have an indirect technical foul charged against him, Team A will be charged with an administrative technical foul, and the Team A will have two team fouls charged against its seven and ten team fouls (NFHS rules). The game will start with Team B shooting four free throws and then have possesion of the ball for a throw-in at the division line (NFHS rules) or jump ball to start the game (NFHS rules).
I have a concern with this. What rule are you using to establish that a person must be added as a player(mandatory)? Just because a person is in a uniform does not establish them a player. If it was a boy in an identical uniform just prior to a girls game do you add him? I would submit that if they aren't a designated team member, we have to handle it differently.

I believe there are rules designating people who are authorized to be on the court to conduct a pre-game warm-up, but I went thru my rule book and couldn't locate it. I would say if they aren't a team member(or bench personnel) during the warm-up, then have them leave the court (not removed from the gym).

Now here is a point of contention with that scenario. What if they aren't a team member but bench personnel. I think 10-4-1 in the first line says it all, "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct..." i.e. judgement. And in my judgement, I am going to hold all bench personnel to the same standard as team member. Whack bench T with one indirect on the head coach.

IMHO



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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 02:02am
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Quote:
Originally posted by SOWB_Ref
I have a concern with this. What rule are you using to establish that a person must be added as a player(mandatory)? Just because a person is in a uniform does not establish them a player
You have a point, I think I am going to reverse my agreement with Mark about adding the name to the book; but I stand by the rest of my previous post.

BTW, things may get very screwy in this thread if we don't use proper terms.

A player is initially one of the 5 designated starters.

In pregame, all players and subs are bench personnel.

All eligible team personnel are team members.

So, I would call this offender a team member since he may become a player just by adding his name to the book.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 08:52am
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If he is in uniform and participating during warm ups, I don't think it is a stretch to assume he is going to be an eleigible player for the evening. By the sound of the post, this was before thr 10 minute mark or else your player count and the book count would have been off. I don't know if the rule book cover this specifically, but I think it is the proper way to handle it (using eleasticity?). I have never seen a person who is not playing dress and warm up, this is just a bizarre sitch, but, regardless of his "status" on the team, the coach is still responsible for the action of the people warming up.

Where I could see it get really sticky is if the kid was an ineleiglbe player but warming up, but then again it is not my problem, he still broke the rules; let the state sort it out.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 09:05am
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Quote:
Originally posted by SOWB_Ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by daves
One of the officials at our association meeting tonight
brought up a situation that maybe some of you can help me with. During the pre game warmups a person who is dressed in uniform dunks the ball. When going over to report the technical the coach informs the official that the person won't be playing or even listed in the book. Since you can't call a T on the player, how would you handle this? I told him that I would call a bench T with an indirect on the head coach and start the game with free throws and possession for the other team at the division line. Is the correct procedure for handling this?

Partially correct. The head coach does receive an indirect technical foul for the player dunking the ball, you are correct in that respect. But the technical foul is a direct technical foul against the player. If his/her name is not in the scorebook, you add his/her name. The adding of the name in this situation is mandatory. There is a sticky wicket attached to the adding of the player's name to the scorebook. If the dunking occured before the ten minute mark then you do not have a problem. But, if the dunking occured after the ten minute mark, then the player's team is also charged with an administrative technical foul for adding a name to the scorebook. You cannot get around adding the player's name to the scorebook.

At the least, the A1 will have one direct technical foul charged against him, the Head Coach A will have an indirect technical foul charged against him, and the Team A will have one team foul charged against its seven and ten team fouls NFHS rules). The game will start with Team B shooting two free throws and then have possesion of the ball for a throw-in at the division line (NFHS rules) or jump ball to start the game (NFHS rules).

At the least, the A1 will have one direct technical foul charged against him, the Head Coach A will have an indirect technical foul charged against him, Team A will be charged with an administrative technical foul, and the Team A will have two team fouls charged against its seven and ten team fouls (NFHS rules). The game will start with Team B shooting four free throws and then have possesion of the ball for a throw-in at the division line (NFHS rules) or jump ball to start the game (NFHS rules).
I have a concern with this. What rule are you using to establish that a person must be added as a player(mandatory)? Just because a person is in a uniform does not establish them a player. If it was a boy in an identical uniform just prior to a girls game do you add him? I would submit that if they aren't a designated team member, we have to handle it differently.

I believe there are rules designating people who are authorized to be on the court to conduct a pre-game warm-up, but I went thru my rule book and couldn't locate it. I would say if they aren't a team member(or bench personnel) during the warm-up, then have them leave the court (not removed from the gym).

Now here is a point of contention with that scenario. What if they aren't a team member but bench personnel. I think 10-4-1 in the first line says it all, "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct..." i.e. judgement. And in my judgement, I am going to hold all bench personnel to the same standard as team member. Whack bench T with one indirect on the head coach.

IMHO




Lets look at the orginal posting again. The A1 is in uniform and the Head Coach A tells you that he does not plan to play A1 or even put A1's name in the scorebook. If that is the case, then Head Coach A should not have had A1 in uniform going through warm-ups. When A1 dunked, his name just went into the scorebook.

NFHS R4-S34-A4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and eligible to play.

Now it my be argued that since A1's name was not in the scorebook, he is not a team member, but as I stated in my original posting, players' names can be added to the scorebook at anytime, subject to penalties in certain circumstances. In the posted play both A1 and Head Coach A made poor decisions, but that is life, and Team A has to live with the decisions made by A1 and Head Coach A.

I need to clarify one point in my original posting. I did not choose my words carefully in describing how the game will start. The game actually started in theory when A1 dunked the ball, he committed a technical foul. When the warm-up period has ended, Team B will shot free throws followed by possession of the ball for a throw-in at the division line opposite the scorer/timer's table (NFHS) or the ball will be put into play with at jump ball at center court by any two players from both teams (NCAA). I had stated that the game would start with a jump ball under NCAA rules. That was incorrect. The reason that the game in theory started when A1 dunked the ball hinges on the rule that allows any player on Team B including incoming substitutes to shoot the free throws for the technical foul. In the last year or two the Rules Committee cleaned up the language that confirmed the fact that anybody, including non-starters could shoot the free throws for a technical foul during the dead ball period before the scheduled start of the game. Until this language was added, some officials thought that only starters could shoot the technical foul free throws because to allow a substitute to shoot them would be the same as changing the starting lineup after the time period to name the starters. This was never the case. Substitutes could always shoot these free throws, because the rule allowing any substitute to shoot the free throws trumped the rule about changing starters, because it was implied that A1's technical foul for dunking was the theoretical starting of the game.

Now for a bonus question without looking at your rules book, when is the Alternating Possession arrow set, and towards whose basket is it set? Stayed tuned, film at eleven.

Regarding the male player who is in uniform and dunks the ball prior to the girls game. You have nothing. You do not have jurisdiction for his game, even if you are going to officiate his game immediately after the girls game. In this scenario, I do some preventive officiating. If I saw him in the warm-up line with the girls, I would ask him if he shaved his legs everyday, if he said no, then I would tell him he could not be on the court with players who do shave their legs everyday. I can assure you that gets them off the court very quickly.
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Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 10:52am
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Mark--if all this happened after the 10-minute time limit, would there not be free throws awarded for adding a name to the scorebook-in additon to the dunk.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 11:06am
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I think 10-3-5 makes it clear, all team members.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 11:10am
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Quote:
Originally posted by APHP
Mark--if all this happened after the 10-minute time limit, would there not be free throws awarded for adding a name to the scorebook-in additon to the dunk.

Yes, I stated that in my original posting on the first page of the thread.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 11:17am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Now it my be argued that since A1's name was not in the scorebook, he is not a team member, but as I stated in my original posting, players' names can be added to the scorebook at anytime, subject to penalties in certain circumstances. In the posted play both A1 and Head Coach A made poor decisions, but that is life, and Team A has to live with the decisions made by A1 and Head Coach A.


I agree that changes can be made prior to the game, but what rule stipulates, we have authority to force a change and not merely penalize the infractions.

Let's say that a player is left off the roster, just prior to the start of the game and the head coach informs you that they want to add the player. You tell them they can but it will be a T. Isn't it in the hands of the coach at that point if they want the player. We are just reacting to the rule infraction, not creating it.


Regarding the male player who is in uniform and dunks the ball prior to the girls game. You have nothing. You do not have jurisdiction for his game, even if you are going to officiate his game immediately after the girls game. In this scenario, I do some preventive officiating. If I saw him in the warm-up line with the girls, I would ask him if he shaved his legs everyday, if he said no, then I would tell him he could not be on the court with players who do shave their legs everyday. I can assure you that gets them off the court very quickly.
okay so let's make it a little more dramatic for the point of this debate.

Boy, graduates from an early program at the end of winter quarter. Comes back at the beginning of the school year and attends a game. In poor judgement he thinks that coming in uniform will spur his team to victory. Prior to the point where you check the book, he dunks the ball. Is he eligible to become a player? No. Could we add him as a team member? No. What if the player hadn't graduated but merely couldn't play because of failing grades?

My point being is who defines eligibility. While the book explicity does not define eligibility, I think 3-2-1 and 10-1-1 covers this. A player elibibility is determined by the roster submitted to the official scorer. Anyone not on that roster is either bench personnel or a spectator.
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 11:57am
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Quote:
Originally posted by SOWB_Ref
My point being is who defines eligibility. While the book explicity does not define eligibility, I think 3-2-1 and 10-1-1 covers this. A player elibibility is determined by the roster submitted to the official scorer. Anyone not on that roster is either bench personnel or a spectator. [/B]
I believe we define eligiblity based on who is dressed; we have no way of knowing who is on what restricitons.

Teams add players to the book all the time; were those players ineligible before their names were added?
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Old Thu Feb 14, 2002, 12:03pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by SOWB_Ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Now it my be argued that since A1's name was not in the scorebook, he is not a team member, but as I stated in my original posting, players' names can be added to the scorebook at anytime, subject to penalties in certain circumstances. In the posted play both A1 and Head Coach A made poor decisions, but that is life, and Team A has to live with the decisions made by A1 and Head Coach A.


I agree that changes can be made prior to the game, but what rule stipulates, we have authority to force a change and not merely penalize the infractions.

Let's say that a player is left off the roster, just prior to the start of the game and the head coach informs you that they want to add the player. You tell them they can but it will be a T. Isn't it in the hands of the coach at that point if they want the player. We are just reacting to the rule infraction, not creating it.


Regarding the male player who is in uniform and dunks the ball prior to the girls game. You have nothing. You do not have jurisdiction for his game, even if you are going to officiate his game immediately after the girls game. In this scenario, I do some preventive officiating. If I saw him in the warm-up line with the girls, I would ask him if he shaved his legs everyday, if he said no, then I would tell him he could not be on the court with players who do shave their legs everyday. I can assure you that gets them off the court very quickly.
okay so let's make it a little more dramatic for the point of this debate.

Boy, graduates from an early program at the end of winter quarter. Comes back at the beginning of the school year and attends a game. In poor judgement he thinks that coming in uniform will spur his team to victory. Prior to the point where you check the book, he dunks the ball. Is he eligible to become a player? No. Could we add him as a team member? No. What if the player hadn't graduated but merely couldn't play because of failing grades?

My point being is who defines eligibility. While the book explicity does not define eligibility, I think 3-2-1 and 10-1-1 covers this. A player elibibility is determined by the roster submitted to the official scorer. Anyone not on that roster is either bench personnel or a spectator.

Lets look at your first scenario: Head Coach A comes to the Referee and says that he wants to add A13 to the scorebook. The referee should as the coach if he intends to start A13 (hence change his starting line-up). If Coach A says no, the R should explain the rule to Coach A and let him decide whether he wants the technical foul (and administratve technical foul charged to the team) now or what until A13 goes into the game. If Coach A decides to wait to enter the A13 into the book, then A13 is nothing more than bench personnel and not a team member. Meaning if A13 commits a unsportsmanlike technical, A13 is not added to the scorebook.

Your second scenario: The StateHSAA determines academic eligibility, not the official. If A13 is in uniform and he takes part in the warmups the officials have to consider him a team member. The rules are not suppose to define eligibility, that is the responsibility of the sanctioning organization. It is not the officials jurisdiction to determine one way or another if A13 is eligible per the sanctioning organization rules for eligibility. If A13 is in uniform and taking part in the warmup drills and dunks the ball, his name is now going into the scorebook and Team B is going to shoot at least two free throws depending upon how much time was on the clock when the dunk occurred. As a personal note here: If A13 is not eligible to be on the team, then why is the coach and the school administration allowing him to be in uniform and take part in the warmups. I am one of these bleeding heart liberals, but please, the coach and school administrators are supposed to be college graduates, where are their brains. The rules do not allow us to ignore the dunk by A13. The school pulled a major bonehead mistake and the team pays the price for it. And let me reiterate just once more, it is not the game officials responsibility to determine whether a player is eligible per the sanctioning organizations rules. The officials are to officiate the game per the game rules. A13 is a team member. Your rule references are good ones, they make it easier for the officials to charge A13 with a technical foul for dunking the ball and adding his name to the roster. In fact they are the rule references that I would use to justify my technical foul against A13 and adding his name to the scorebook.
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Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
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