Dunk in pregame

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bainsey

He's NOT IN THE GAME.

Again, you can invoke 2-8-1 if you'd like, and charge a team (not bench) technical foul, but I'm not going that route.

As soon as he joined the team during their warmups, he became a team member. It really is that simple.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

As soon as he joined the team during their warmups, he became a team member. It really is that simple.

Even if "he" was a hot, single, Mom, in a short skirt, and heels? What if the dunker was a fan from the opposing team, with, or without, some type of similar jersey on?

In my opinion, standing in the layup line does not make you a team member. I'm sure that there are some other valid reasons for charging the technical, or technicals (scorebook), but simply standing in the layup line and dunking is certainly not one of them.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

He's NOT IN THE GAME. Again, you can invoke 2-8-1 if you'd like, and charge a team (not bench) technical foul, but I'm not going that route.

So just charge the team technical for adding the name to the book, but don't penalize the team member for dunking? I'm not going that route.

[constable]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

As soon as he joined the team during their warmups, he became a team member. It really is that simple.

If it is really is that simple there Yoda can you back it up with a rule and case reference?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So just charge the team technical for adding the name to the book....

No, sir. Just treat the dunker like a fan -- which he is -- and have game management deal with his removal.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

No, sir. Just treat the dunker like a fan -- which he is -- and have game management deal with his removal.

You've already provided the rule reference, and no one here is going to abuse the slippery slope, I think everyone seems to be satisfied with their own answee. Bottom line, coaches shouldn't allow this, so I'm ok with a bit of uncertainty here. Sort of like Mitch Williams on the mound.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by constable

If it is really is that simple there Yoda can you back it up with a rule and case reference?

Yoda??

Nice...

Go read 4-34 and the definitions there.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going to apologize in advance for the length of this post but hope that everybody will give it a thoughtful read through. I should remind our newer members of the Forum that this thread is not the first time that this situation has been discussed; I am pretty sure that within the last ten (10) years it has been discussed here.

We can be presented with two different scenarios: 1) Pregame dunk in the JV game by a Varsity player, and 2) pregame dunk in the VAR game by a jr. varsity player.


Let me first state upfront that the previously mentioned "The OHSAA Rebounder's Report" is a publication of the OhioHSAA edited by Jerry Snodgrass, and Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA. The article in question was from Issue #4, January 18, 2012. I will quote the article in its entirety:

"Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules."

Normally, I would state that this article has standing only in the jurisdiciton of the OhioHSAA. But, because Henry Zaborniak, Jr., Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA, is the current Chairman of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, the ruling stated in this article, no doubt, has Hank's support; meaning: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Yes, I know, it is an old one that only we "bald old geezers" would recognize; even MTD, Jr., said that I was showing my age.


Let us discuss Situation (1) first, because it is the most likely scenario:

We all know that many times, especially in states like Ohio, that allow players to play in both the JV and VAR games (and even the FR game for FR, JV, VAR trippleheaders), that not all of the players warming up will be wearing identical uniforms and warmups; as long as everybody for a team is wearing the same color jersery is good enough to meet the uniform rules requirments (assuming that the individual jersey are otherwise legal).

Therefore, it is logicial to assume that all of the players who are warming up are members of the JV team. It is not part of the duties of the Game Officials to poll the players as to who is a JV player and who is VAR player who is just running through the warmup line. It is the responsiblity of the HC to manage his team and to know who is warming up and who is not warming up.

Without going into the history of the Dead Ball dunking rule, the rule was adopted as a safety rule. For those who want to research this further please do (please look up Daryl Dawkins, ), but in the meantime take my word for it. Therefore, it would be well within the rules to penalize a VAR player for being in JV warmup line for dunking the ball.

NFHS R10-S4 (Bench Technical)-A1i states: "Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball."

The penalty for the situation being discussed is a DTF charged to the Dunker and an ITF chargerd to the Dunker's HC.

My position has always been the same as Camron's and that this is apply NFHS R10-S4-Ai.

The real question to be asked in our situation is this: If the Dunk occured after the Ten Minute Mark, should an Administrative TF charged to the Team for adding a Player to the Roster. One part of me (the evil trouble maker part, ) says yes, while the other part of me (the one that has mellowed over the years, ) says treat the Dunker as a substitute in uniform that the HC has told to be ready to play in case of an emergency and if that emergency happens he will then add his name to the roster and take the TF. I take the latter position.

I have said my piece. Have at it boys and girls.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Again, you can invoke 2-8-1 if you'd like, and charge a team (not bench) technical foul, but I'm not going that route.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So just charge the team technical for adding the name to the book, but don't penalize the team member for dunking? I'm not going that route.

Originally Posted by bainsey

No, sir. Just treat the dunker like a fan, which he is, and have game management deal with his removal.

bainsey: I believe that you and I are on the same page on this, but in your earlier post you stated to "charge a team (not bench) technical foul" as an option, an option that you wouldn't take, but, nevertheless, an option.

How can you justify charging a team technical for a pregame dunk, it's a player technical? In my opinion, you're either going to have to charge two technicals (dunk, adding name to book), or none, and I would vote for none, and would simply, "treat the dunker like a fan, which he is, and have game management deal with his removal".

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

bainsey: I believe that you and I are on the same page on this, but in your earlier post you stated to "charge a team (not bench) technical foul" as an option, an option that you wouldn't take, but, nevertheless, an option.

How can you justify charging a team technical for a pregame dunk, it's a player technical?

See the following rule...

10-4 Bench Technical
The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

See the following rule...

10-4 Bench Technical
The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 . . . Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

Camron:

Billy is correct. You can not charge the TF as an Adminstrative TF; see the Penalty for NFHS R1-S4-A1i and my post above.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You can not charge the TF as an Administrative TF; see the Penalty for NFHS R10-S4-A1i.

Camron Rust: You almost had me, but almost only counts in horseshoes, and hand grenades, not in Forum posts.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as
substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench
personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or
attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.
If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The
foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged
indirectly to the head coach.

Well, now I know that if the head coach comes out and does a pregame dunk I can charge him with a direct technical foul. You learn something every day. Thanks.

So now we're back to the same question, is any pregame dunker: a person, in uniform, from another level team from that school; a hot, single Mom; a mascot; a fan, from that school, or another school, etc., considered bench personnel? Are they a team member just because they're in the layup line? I say, "No", to both, but that's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before, many, many, times before.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Camron Rust: You almost had me, but almost only counts in horseshoes, and hand grenades, not in Forum posts.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as
substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench
personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or
attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.
If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The
foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged
indirectly to the head coach.

Well, now I know that if the head coach comes out and does a pregame dunk I can charge him with a direct technical foul. You learn something every day. Thanks.

So now we're back to the same question, is any pregame dunker: a person, in uniform, from another level team from that school; a hot, single Mom; a mascot; a fan, from that school, or another school, etc., considered bench personnel? Are they a team member just because they're in the layup line? I say, "No", to both, but that's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before, many, many, times before.

Which begs the question, if the Assistant Coach dunks a Dead Ball in the pregame warmup do we WHACK him?

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Camron Rust: You almost had me, but almost only counts in horseshoes, and hand grenades, not in Forum posts.

The head coach is responsible for his/her own conduct and behavior, as well as
substitutes, disqualified team members and all other bench personnel. Bench
personnel, including the head coach, shall not:
ART. 1 Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts
or conduct such as:
i. Grasping either basket except to prevent injury; dunking or stuffing, or
attempting to dunk or stuff a dead ball.

PENALTY: (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in.
If the head coach is the offender, the foul is charged directly to him/her. The
foul is charged to the offender (if not the head coach) and also charged
indirectly to the head coach.

Well, now I know that if the head coach comes out and does a pregame dunk I can charge him with a direct technical foul. You learn something every day. Thanks.

So now we're back to the same question, is any pregame dunker: a person, in uniform, from another level team from that school; a hot, single Mom; a mascot; a fan, from that school, or another school, etc., considered bench personnel? Are they a team member just because they're in the layup line? I say, "No", to both, but that's just my opinion, and I've been wrong before, many, many, times before.

So what? Charge it to the offender. Who's the T on? That guy right there who dunked. If he dunks again, he's ejected. He's not a player? Fine. That means he has to leave the gym.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So what? Charge it to the offender. Who's the T on? That guy right there who dunked. If he dunks again, he's ejected. He's not a player? Fine. That means he has to leave the gym.

Have fun getting the charged technical foul recorded in the scorebook, because the name of the offender is probably not going to be there.