Dunk in pregame

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am sure that many of you are familiar with the Preseason Basketball Guide that NASO/Referee publishes in cooperation with NFHS. For a few years now, NASO/Referee publishes a special OhioHSAA Edition where the last four pages are for OhioHSAA officials only.

In this year's OhioHSAA Edition contains a section entitled: "Say It Ain't So". The sections contains six "myths" about the rules. My Comment now addresses Myth #6, but first let me review the play being this thread as been discussing. Previously in this thread (see Comment #83 on Page 6 of this thread dated Jan. 22/Sun.(01:38pmEST), 2012):

"Let me first state upfront that the previously mentioned "The OHSAA Rebounder's Report" is a publication of the OhioHSAA edited by Jerry Snodgrass, and Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA. The article in question was from Issue #4, January 18, 2012. I will quote the article in its entirety:

"Varsity Players ‘warming up’ with JV Players at Pre-Game & Halftime? Consider this….
It happens everywhere more and more. Varsity players get out and warm-up with JV players. But consider this; when they do so, there is no distinguishing between a JV player and a varsity player. If the officials are on the floor, they have jurisdiction. So when that Varsity player wants to demonstrate his jumping ability and dunk….it is a “T” just like any other time. Might ‘seem’ farfetched at first, but nearly EVERY coach agrees the integrity of the game needs to be protected. It starts with simple enforcement of regular adopted game rules."

Normally, I would state that this article has standing only in the jurisdicton of the OhioHSAA. But, because Henry Zaborniak, Jr., Assistant Commissioner of the OhioHSAA, is the current Chairman of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee, the ruling stated in this article, no doubt, has Hank's support; meaning: "When E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen." Yes, I know, it is an old one that only we "bald old geezers" would recognize; even MTD, Jr., said that I was showing my age."

I further stated in Comment #135 on Page 9 (Mar. 18/Sun.(06:23pmEDT), 2012) that Hank's ruling was not only valid in Ohio but is a valid NFHS and NCAA Men's (at the time) ruling because:

"[1971-72 NBCUSC] Casebook Play 409D: Twenty minutes prior to game startingt time, during the pre-game warm-up, several squad members of team A each dunk once with the officials, as well as the coach, as witnesses. When the coach submits his squad list to the scorer he deliberately omits the names of the violators. RULING: Even though the offenders' names are not included on the squad list, team A is assessed a technical foul for each act of dunking and the game starts with team B attempting the free throws. Anyone who participates in the pre-game warm-up is part of the squad, regardless of whether his name apperars on the squad list (R10-S6j).

1971-72 NBCUSC R10-S6j is now [2011-12] NFHS R10-S3-A3 and [2012-12] NCAA Men's R10-S6-A1e."

And now for "Myth #6: Apparent varsity players are shooting around during halftime of the JV contest. One or more of the students are observed dunking during the intermission. The varsity officials notice and penalize those players at the start of the varsity game. Fact #6: At this point in time, while it my be obvious these are varsity players, they are not part of the team participating in the JV game and are not subject to the dunking prohibition. This is the responsibility of game management and they should be left to address this mater if they wish. Varsity officials do not have any jurisdiction at this time and should also defer this matter to game management. Likewise, these students are also not under the jurisdiction of the JV officials and we would not them getting involved/penalizing either."

I bring this up because it is a classic example of people who should now better not doing their due diligence and there by publishing in correct information.

I am getting too old for this nonsense!

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... this year's Ohio HSAA Edition contains a section entitled: "Say It Ain't So". The sections contains six "myths" about the rules ... And now for "Myth #6: Apparent varsity players are shooting around during halftime of the JV contest. One or more of the students are observed dunking during the intermission. The varsity officials notice and penalize those players at the start of the varsity game. Fact #6: At this point in time, while it my be obvious these are varsity players, they are not part of the team participating in the JV game and are not subject to the dunking prohibition. This is the responsibility of game management and they should be left to address this mater if they wish. Varsity officials do not have any jurisdiction at this time and should also defer this matter to game management. Likewise, these students are also not under the jurisdiction of the JV officials and we would not them getting involved/penalizing either."

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Please share with us the other five myths.

Is one of them the myth that Columbus discovered America? Or that Marie Antoinette said "Let them eat cake". Or that Newton was hit on the head with an apple?

[SC Official]

It will be a cold day in hell before I whack a kid for dunking at halftime of the game before his.

Mainly because I’m in the dressing room during halftime and wouldn’t be on the court to see it happen. Secondarily because my jurisdiction for the second game hasn’t begun yet. (In South Carolina the varsity girls and boys play on the same night and we work DHs.)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SC Official

It will be a cold day in hell before I whack a kid for dunking at halftime of the game before his.

Mainly because I’m in the dressing room during halftime and wouldn’t be on the court to see it happen. Secondarily because my jurisdiction for the second game hasn’t begun yet. (In South Carolina the varsity girls and boys play on the same night and we work DHs.)

I agree, but the JV officials had better whack him.

MTD, Sr.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I agree, but the JV officials had better whack him.

MTD, Sr.

For what? The JV officials aren’t the varsity officials and have no authority to penalize something for the game following theirs that they won’t be calling.

For clarity’s sake, JV typically plays on a different night than varsity here.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SC Official

For what? The JV officials aren’t the varsity officials and have no authority to penalize something for the game following theirs that they won’t be calling.

For clarity’s sake, JV typically plays on a different night than varsity here.

No need for clarity's sake because you are misreading my reply. Per the Casebook Play, if the JV officials see the VAR player(s) dunking the ball during halftime of JV game, and infraction of the dunking rule has occurred. And maybe in your neck of the woods JV games are not played on the same night as the VAR games but in the 48 years that I have officiated boys'/girls' H.S. basketball I have officiated in Ohio (since 1971), Florida (1973 to 1977), California (1982-1984), and Michigan (since 1984), and in all of those states, the JV game is played immediately before the VAR game and in some leagues in Ohio a FR game is played immediately before the JV game.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

I find it hilarious that people think Referee publishes this stuff without consulting or working with the NFHS.

I find it even more hilarious when a 46 year old case play is cited as evidence of anything.


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[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rich

I find it even more hilarious when a 46 year old case play is cited as evidence of anything.

I only find it amusing, not hilarious. Many (a large majority) of caseplays in the casebook have been published, virtually unchanged, since I started officiating thirty-seven years ago, with no change (except maybe a case number). Are they no longer valid?

Granted, caseplays disappear as old rules are changed, but are we to ignore the ones that hang around?

Some caseplays disappear with no explanation (which is probably what Rich is talking about). Were they removed because they were no longer valid, or were they removed because of space considerations? "Ay there's the rub" (Hamlet', Act 3 Scene 3, Billy Shakespeare).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

I find it hilarious that people think Referee publishes this stuff without consulting or working with the NFHS.

I find it even more hilarious when a 46 year old case play is cited as evidence of anything.


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1) The last four pages of the Preseason Guide is strictly OhioHSAA produced and really has anything to do with NASO.

2) The NFHS dunking rule has never been changed such as to invalidate the 1971-72 Casebook Play.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

1) The last four pages of the Preseason Guide is strictly OhioHSAA produced and really has anything to do with NASO.



2) The NFHS dunking rule has never been changed such as to invalidate the 1971-72 Casebook Play.



MTD, Sr.

So your bitch is with the OhioHSAA? I'm confused, I guess.


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[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I only find it amusing, not hilarious. Many (a large majority) of caseplays in the casebook have been published, virtually unchanged, since I started officiating thirty-seven years ago, with no change (except maybe a case number). Are they no longer valid?

Granted, caseplays disappear as old rules are changed, but are we to ignore the ones that hang around?

Some caseplays disappear with no explanation (which is probably what Rich is talking about). Were they removed because they were no longer valid, or were they removed because of space considerations? "Ay there's the rub" (Hamlet', Act 3 Scene 3, Billy Shakespeare).

Just because a Casebook Play is not in the current Casebook does not invalidate it. Far too many officials take the attitude that if it isn't in the current Casebook is does not exist or is no longer valid which is 100% incorrect.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Rich

So your bitch is with the OhioHSAA? I'm confused, I guess.


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My point is that in 2011-12 Hank Zaborniak, Jr., while Chairman of the NFHS Rules Committee, in his capacity as an OhioHSAA Asst. Commissioner made ruling supported by Rule and Casebook Play. His ruling was meant for OhioHSAA basketball officials but the Casebook Play supported a NFHS Ruling. And yet six years later, with no change in the NFHS Rules, someone in the OhioHSAA issued a ruling that is contradictory to a correct ruling that had already been made.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

Correctness is always an opinion and those change.


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[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

No need for clarity's sake because you are misreading my reply. Per the Casebook Play, if the JV officials see the VAR player(s) dunking the ball during halftime of JV game, and infraction of the dunking rule has occurred.

Okay, so what do you expect the JV crew to do? Tell the varsity crew that someone dunked? By the way, why the heck would the JV officials be observing the varsity team warming up during halftime?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Okay, so what do you expect the JV crew to do? Tell the varsity crew that someone dunked? By the way, why the heck would the JV officials be observing the varsity team warming up during halftime?

You obviously did not read the Casebook Play did you?

MTD, Sr.