From IAABO Dec. 2011 Newsletter:

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Player and team control in frontcourt necessary for a violation.

So I've apparently never noted/grasped the full text of 9-9-1 before. Frightening.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Here's how you need to view team control during throw-ins...it only affects fouls by the throw-in team...we handle EVERYTHING else the exact same.

In the play above, because player control had not been established first, there is no backcourt violation (as well as 3 second violations or 10 second violations).

So do the 3 second and 10 second counts now start on the first touch, even if it is only a deflection?

[APG]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So do the 3 second and 10 second counts now start on the first touch, even if it is only a deflection?

Nope, those counts do not start until there's been player control.

NFHS Basketball Interpretations 2011-2012

SITUATION 3: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her backcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball onto the court. A1’s pass to A2, who is also in Team A’s backcourt, takes several bounces and six seconds before A2 picks up and controls the ball.

RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the 10-second rule specifically requires that a player/ team be in continuous control in its backcourt for 10 seconds for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the backcourt. (4-35-2; 9-8)

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

So I've apparently never noted/grasped the full text of 9-9-1 before. Frightening.

Thanks for the help, everyone.

For some personal closure, I've figured out why I had forgotten that PC was needed for this in NFHS, and it's because PC isn't required in the frontcourt in NCAA for a BC violation.

"NCAA Rule 9 Section 12. Ball in Back Court
Art. 1. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his or her back court (with any part of his or her body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the front court while the player’s team was in team control and the player or a teammate caused the ball to go into the back court."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Nope, those counts do not start until there's been player control.

NFHS Basketball Interpretations 2011-2012

SITUATION 3: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her backcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball onto the court. A1’s pass to A2, who is also in Team A’s backcourt, takes several bounces and six seconds before A2 picks up and controls the ball.

RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the 10-second rule specifically requires that a player/ team be in continuous control in its backcourt for 10 seconds for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the backcourt. (4-35-2; 9-8)

The trouble is that, unlike the backcourt rule, the ten second rule was not revised. It doesn't say player and team control, but rather it still says neither a player nor his team may be in continuous control.....

A1's throw-in bounces off A2, then remains untouched in the backcourt for ten seconds.

?

[APG]

We've gone round and round about how the NFHS poorly worded the rule. We know through official NFHS power point presentations that the intent of the new rule is to not shoot free throws when the throw-in team commits a foul. Everything else is handled the exact same way.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

We've gone round and round about how the NFHS poorly worded the rule.

I know, but this is my first time to consider this particular aspect.

[APG]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I know, but this is my first time to consider this particular aspect.

Consider all you want, but the NFHS has told us to judge these plays just as we did before. Wouldn't be surprised if we had some editoral changes the next upcoming years.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

The NFHS has told us to judge these plays just as we did before.

Which would be pretty difficult for 2011-12 rookie officials.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

For some personal closure, I've figured out why I had forgotten that PC was needed for this in NFHS, and it's because PC isn't required in the frontcourt in NCAA for a BC violation.

"NCAA Rule 9 Section 12. Ball in Back Court
Art. 1. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his or her back court (with any part of his or her body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the front court while the player’s team was in team control and the player or a teammate caused the ball to go into the back court."

This part of the rule is the same in NFHS and in NCAA. PC in the FC is not required for either. PC INBOUNDS is required before the BC violation rule can be considered.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The trouble is that, unlike the backcourt rule, the ten second rule was not revised. It doesn't say player and team control, but rather it still says neither a player nor his team may be in continuous control.....

A1's throw-in bounces off A2, then remains untouched in the backcourt for ten seconds.

?

Wow, deja vu.

I stated that the 10-second rule was not clearly written a year ago and I was told I'm an idiot for thinking so. I was told I should be able to extrapolate the correct ruling by piecing together 4 or 5 unrelated case plays.

Re-write the 10-second rule to state that "subsequent a throw-in, a 10-second count shall not begin until/unless player control has been established." Same for 3-second violations.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

This part of the rule is the same in NFHS and in NCAA. PC in the FC is not required for either. PC INBOUNDS is required before the BC violation rule can be considered.

Bob:

You would be correct if it was still last year. The NCAA Rule has not changed from 2009-10/2010-11 to 2011-12/2012-13 but the NFHS Rule has.

2011-12/2012-13 NCAA Basketball Rules R9-S12-A1:
"A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his or her back court (with any part of his or her body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the front court while the player’s team was in team control and the player or a teammate caused the ball to go into the back court."

2010-11 NFHS Basketball Rules R9-S9-A1:
"A player shall not be the first to touch a ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt."

BUT!!

2011-12 NFHS Basketball Rules R9-S9-A1:
"A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in player and team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt."

The change in red was not mentioned in the the Editorial Changes made to the NFHS Rules for 2011-12.

MTD, Sr.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

Consider all you want, but the NFHS has told us to judge these plays just as we did before. Wouldn't be surprised if we had some editoral changes the next upcoming years.

I dislike the result, but APG is exactly right. The NFHS rules committee screwed up this rule change about team control and all the accompanying changes. But what we've been told is that ALL the changes regarding control are designed to have only one result: making a common foul by a member of the throw-in team a team control foul until player control is established inbounds. That's it.

Every other play -- ALL backcourt plays, ALL counts -- are to be ruled EXACTLY as they were last year.

So even though those changes actually produced more than that one result, we've been told (in my state) to officiate according the intentions of the rules committee, rather than by the actual written rule. I hate that, but that's what we're doing.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Bob:

2011-12 NFHS Basketball Rules R9-S9-A1:
"A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in player and team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt."

The change in red was not mentioned in the the Editorial Changes made to the NFHS Rules for 2011-12.

MTD, Sr.

The change isn't what they meant, though.

A1, from the BC, passes the ball to A2, standing in the FC. A2 muffs the pass, and the ball rolls to the BC where it's first touched by A1.

Doesn't meet the letter of the new wording, but it's still a violation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The change isn't what they meant, though.

A1, from the BC, passes the ball to A2, standing in the FC. A2 muffs the pass, and the ball rolls to the BC where it's first touched by A1.

Doesn't meet the letter of the new wording, but it's still a violation.

Bob:

That may be so, but the problem is that the rule as written (see my post above) does not support "the ruling" that we have been told. I started composing a letter to Hank Zaborniak in early December about this problem but put it aside for other things and now I intend to finish it and send it off to him this week.

MTD, Sr.

MTD, Sr/