Have any of you ever called...

[just another ref]

I understand Camron's question. A scores with 15 seconds left. As new lead, you see B1 immediately take the ball out of the net and step out. You start a count in your head, as one should at this point, for the sake of backing up the game clock. Your count reaches 11, and you look to see B1 still standing out of bounds with the ball, flanked by the new trail, standing passively with hands at his side. Do you blow the whistle at all, or do you let the clock expire, thinking "Boy, die he screw up!"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I understand Camron's question. A scores with 15 seconds left. As new trail, you see B1 immediately take the ball out of the net and step out. You start a count in your head, as one should at this point, for the sake of backing up the game clock. Your count reaches 11, and you look to see B1 still standing out of bounds with the ball, flanked by the new trail, standing passively with hands at his side. Do you blow the whistle at all, or do you let the clock expire, thinking "Boy, die he screw up!"

Do you call travels all over the court when you do not have ball coverage responsibility at all too? What about ruling a player left their designated spot your partner has too? There are a lot of situations we could "think" our partner did not get it right. If one person can do that job, then we do not need 2 or 3 official on the game, just one would be sufficient.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do you call travels all over the court when you do not have ball coverage responsibility at all too? What about ruling a player left their designated spot your partner has too? There are a lot of situations we could "think" our partner did not get it right. If one person can do that job, then we do not need 2 or 3 official on the game, just one would be sufficient.

Peace

No, but I would not be surprised to learn that the guy in the video does. The question at hand is what to do if you find yourself in a game deciding situation with the polar opposite of this guy. How much, if any, does one expand one's normal responsibilities?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How can you be right by doing that? First of all the rules state that the official's signal is what is the judge. Granted our count should be close, but you have just undermined the entire crew by doing this. You cannot be right in a situation like this. This is not like calling in someone's primary, it is literally taking their call from them in every way. It would be like the lead calling a violation on the FT shooter. Or the Lead calling a backcourt violation on a player touching the division line. At best he was guessing as he has no idea when the official judged the ball being at disposal.

Peace

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

This is not unlike that Rutgers/St. Johns game last year where all three officials got suspended for screwing up the end of the game. Only one of them had responsibility according to the mechanics but they all paid for it. All were expected to step up and do the right thing for the game. If any one of them had stepped up and dealt with it, there would have never been an issue. Sure, one of them might have been irritated, but it would have been over and forgotten about.

At the very least, the new lead, after some time, should either be calling the violation or stopping the clock to deal with the unusual delay in the team being able to take the ball OOB for a throwin...and I'm not saying it was enough in the above situation, 8 seconds is not enough to jump in....there was no unusual delay in the ball being available.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Why would new L be watching and counting the 5 second count? Who's watching the other 9 players while this is going on?

That being said, there's some situations where you have to leave and die with what your partner calls or doesn't call.

You don't have to watch it to know. If you have clock awareness, and know that a shot went in a 12 seconds, you know that time can't expire before the throw is released. If you get to 0 without a throwin, no matter who has coverage, you've got a big problem and need to deal with it....you're both responsible, not just the new trail. The new trail might take the most heat but the new lead is not without blame.

Originally Posted by just another ref

No, but I would not be surprised to learn that the guy in the video does. The question at hand is what to do if you find yourself in a game deciding situation with the polar opposite of this guy. How much, if any, does one expand one's normal responsibilities?

If you see it and know it and it is something that every single person in the gym could see and know, you just have to get it right, even if it makes you or your partner look bad for a moment. People will forget about who jumped in to get it when there is an elephant on the court but no one will forget that the crew completely screwed up the game by missing an elephant on the court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're both responsible.

Does the old, "Ant Versus Elephant", metaphor apply here?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you see it and know it and it is something that every single person in the gym could see and know, you just have to get it right, even if it makes you or your partner look bad for a moment. People will forget about who jumped in to get it when there is an elephant on the court but no one will forget that the crew completely screwed up the game by missing an elephant on the court.

Some people (see the video in the OP) just do a poor job of judging what is an elephant and what isn't.

[Rule11]

Rich,
I can't tell you how terribly impressed I am with your composure in this situation. I have always found your posts to be some of the most reasonable ones made on this site and the video only confirms this.Your partner took this game over and deserves all the credit for the FUBAR situation he caused. Short of hitting him with Chseagle's taser I don't think there is much else you could have done.Thank goodness the team did not hit the last shot....
It is very difficult to tell how agitated you are...you can tell that you do not agree with your "partner" but you are not demonstrative. I thought you handled yourself with class and dignity....I may have been tempted to take all of my partners clothes with me while he was in the shower and let him go out of there naked...kinda the way he left you on the court.

I have been following this board since I started officiating about 6 years ago and I give a lot of thanks to guys like you for helping me understand the game a lot better. This site has certainly helped me rise through the ranks fairly quickly by being prepared for just about any situation from dealing with Coaches (My biggest weakness) to strange case plays.
I feel like I know a lot of you personally (Most of you in a positive way) just by reading this Forum over the past 6 years. The forum allows people to speak their mind on a myriad of subjects and get constructive feedback.
I just wanted to thank you all for contributing to this Forum. Despite some of the inevitable bickering that goes on it is a fantastic tool to developing as a referee. I am looking for the day that this site is turned into a reality show. When I work with some of the less experienced guys that I think have potential I turn them on to this site...not sure if any of them have heeded my advice but I hope they do.
For the record I really miss Mick and his sense of humor.
Jurassic-I know you don't post much anymore but your insight/commentary is the one I respect above all others...even if you are a curmudgeonly old man
If any of you are ever working down in my little corner of CT (I think it is a different corner than Billy Mac) feel free to let me know- would love to come watch.
Thanks again.
Jarod

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Rule11

If any of you are ever working down in my little corner of CT, I think it is a different corner than Billy Mac, feel free to let me know.

Now we have at least two officials on the Forum tied at the very top of the high school varsity pay scale. Rule11, and I, are part of the 1%. All the rest of the unwashed officials on the Forum are part of the 99%.

Man. I hope that Mark Padgett doesn't offer his opinion of what Rule 11 is. We probably don't want to know.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

I have no problem calling a foul or violation outside my PCA, if I pause for a second and believe my partner must have been straightlined to miss it. I also have no problem with my partner doing the same, and I make that clear during pre-game.

However, when it comes to throw-ins, if I'm not administering, I'm disengaging from that endline/sideline, and focusing in-bounds. Some things are best to be trusted to your partner.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

I have no problem calling a foul or violation outside my PCA, if I pause for a second and believe my partner must have been straightlined to miss it. I also have no problem with my partner doing the same, and I make that clear during pre-game.

However, when it comes to throw-ins, if I'm not administering, I'm disengaging from that endline/sideline, and focusing in-bounds. Some things are best to be trusted to your partner.

If I call a violation outside of my primary, I made a mistake.

If I'm calling a foul outside of my primary, I'm going to try to be late and needed. By needed, I mean the game could degenerate quickly if it goes uncalled.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If I call a violation outside of my primary, I made a mistake.

If I'm calling a foul outside of my primary, I'm going to try to be late and needed. By needed, I mean the game could degenerate quickly if it goes uncalled.

Agreed...if it is an "OH MY GOD!!" call, then go in there and make the call.

5 second throw-in violation does not fit that criteria.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If I call a violation outside of my primary, I made a mistake.

If I'm calling a foul outside of my primary, I'm going to try to be late and needed. By needed, I mean the game could degenerate quickly if it goes uncalled.

So lets say you are NOT the trail here and see this

Duke travel. How many steps? I count 12! - YouTube

You would just say oh well, I'll let it go? I know I would not. I would call it and if my partner tries to say a peep that I shouldn't have I would tell him to tighten up and do his f'ing job. Because this is pretty obvious.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

This is not unlike that Rutgers/St. Johns game last year where all three officials got suspended for screwing up the end of the game. Only one of them had responsibility according to the mechanics but they all paid for it. All were expected to step up and do the right thing for the game. If any one of them had stepped up and dealt with it, there would have never been an issue. Sure, one of them might have been irritated, but it would have been over and forgotten about.

At the very least, the new lead, after some time, should either be calling the violation or stopping the clock to deal with the unusual delay in the team being able to take the ball OOB for a throwin...and I'm not saying it was enough in the above situation, 8 seconds is not enough to jump in....there was no unusual delay in the ball being available.

I will put it this way. I am a Back Judge in football. If I call a Roughing the Passer penalty I really need to hang up my whistle and stripped shirt. The other situation you are talking about as far as I remember was not the same as this situation.

And like I used to hear this as a kid, "You can be right and dead at the same time." I think I would have to eat that mistake and let my partner do his job.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will put it this way. I am a Back Judge in football. If I call a Roughing the Passer penalty I really need to hang up my whistle and stripped shirt. The other situation you are talking about as far as I remember was not the same as this situation.

And like I used to hear this as a kid, "You can be right and dead at the same time." I think I would have to eat that mistake and let my partner do his job.

Peace

If you make a judgment call so far out of your area as in your BJ example, you're right...I agree.

What I'm talking about is not about judgment....it is about absolutes. The only judgement in this case is whether the player has it at their disposal or not....and that is a judgment call only when a player may be delaying the throwin by not picking up the ball or taking it out of bounds.

However, when the player has the ball OOB and is in a position to make a throwin, there is no judgment to it....by rule, the count should be on. If 8, 9 or more seconds transpire after that point, someone better have something.

When the final buzzer sounds and you're asked about the play by your assignor, I don't want to be left with saying I knew it should have been called but did nothing and point the finger at my partner.

And the play I referred to was indeed different, but it was a player where the crew was held responsible for what was the responsibility of one official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you make a judgment call so far out of your area as in your BJ example, you're right...I agree.

What I'm talking about is not about judgment....it is about absolutes. The only judgement in this case is whether the player has it at their disposal or not....and that is a judgment call only when a player may be delaying the throwin by not picking up the ball or taking it out of bounds.

However, when the player has the ball OOB and is in a position to make a throwin, there is no judgment to it....by rule, the count should be on. If 8, 9 or more seconds transpire after that point, someone better have something.

An official has too much time on their hands if they are calling something here from the Trail. There are players that could be trying to get free and move around the court. If he/she is counting and has the time to make that call, they are certainly not doing their job which is required to watch a lot of players certainly in two person and the case in three person as well. If that kind of issue takes place than an official that is the new trail should not be working those kinds of games if they cannot get those plays right. We have people get banned for much lesser things in games, why would we not do the same here? We cannot take it upon ourselves to make everything right in the world because we think a partner screwed up.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

When the final buzzer sounds and you're asked about the play by your assignor, I don't want to be left with saying I knew it should have been called but did nothing and point the finger at my partner.

I would not be telling an assignor I knew something I am not watching for. I would not be in this situation. I had a situation take place on a 3 point shot where the ball went in on a off-ball foul and my partner counted the basket. The only information I could give is that the ball went in. I could not tell the assignor definitively that the foul took place before or after the ball was released (which was the assignor's contention) and certainly could only give very little help. Why? I was watching other players and could not tell you what was happening on the other side of the court. I probably got banned from that league and honestly I am OK with that. The assignor did not know the rule and his handling of the situation was evidence of what I felt about him.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

And the play I referred to was indeed different, but it was a player where the crew was held responsible for what was the responsibility of one official.

Well as I said, you can be dead and right at the same time. I am not taking my responsibility for my partner that has a judgment call in a situation like this. I might help out when appropriate, but not make a call for him/her that they have all the way. If they cannot get that right they should not be there.

Peace