Have any of you ever called...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is not a rule issue, this at best would be a mechanics and judgment issue. The new lead should not be making judgments on when the ball is at the disposal of a player after a made basket. He better be looking at players coming up the court and paying more attention to that. Then he is totally wrong to even be counting during that situation mechanically. So he is wrong in both ways. I would not want to be "that guy" in the video at all.

Peace

Still, the question remains, what IF he was right? What if the clock was on 8 (or even 9 or 10 or even more) when the thrower clearly had the ball OOB and was attempting to make the throwin but it ran to 2, 1 or 0? At what point will you blow the whistle to get it right? Are you going to let the thrower have 8-10 seconds? Or will you, at some point, make a crew call?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, the question remains, what IF he was right? What if the clock was on 8 (or even 9 or 10 or even more) when the thrower clearly had the ball OOB and was attempting to make the throwin but it ran to 2, 1 or 0? At what point will you blow the whistle to get it right? Are you going to let the thrower have 8-10 seconds? Or will you, at some point, make a crew call?

IF I make a "crew call", then I blow the whistle, get together and explain what I have and the crew makes the call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, the question remains, what IF he was right? What if the clock was on 8 (or even 9 or 10 or even more) when the thrower clearly had the ball OOB and was attempting to make the throwin but it ran to 2, 1 or 0? At what point will you blow the whistle to get it right? Are you going to let the thrower have 8-10 seconds? Or will you, at some point, make a crew call?

How can you be right by doing that? First of all the rules state that the official's signal is what is the judge. Granted our count should be close, but you have just undermined the entire crew by doing this. You cannot be right in a situation like this. This is not like calling in someone's primary, it is literally taking their call from them in every way. It would be like the lead calling a violation on the FT shooter. Or the Lead calling a backcourt violation on a player touching the division line. At best he was guessing as he has no idea when the official judged the ball being at disposal.

Peace

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What if the clock was on 8 (or even 9 or 10 or even more) when the thrower clearly had the ball OOB and was attempting to make the throwin but it ran to 2, 1 or 0? At what point will you blow the whistle to get it right?

You just don't.

You can stand, look puzzled, and wonder to yourself, isn't that five? You can even question him after the game about it. However, you trust your partner to make that call. It's his end line, his call.

It's nearly impossible to get straightlined on a five-second throw-in violation, so you're not helping anyone by looking past the end line.

[just another ref]

I understand Camron's question. A scores with 15 seconds left. As new lead, you see B1 immediately take the ball out of the net and step out. You start a count in your head, as one should at this point, for the sake of backing up the game clock. Your count reaches 11, and you look to see B1 still standing out of bounds with the ball, flanked by the new trail, standing passively with hands at his side. Do you blow the whistle at all, or do you let the clock expire, thinking "Boy, die he screw up!"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I understand Camron's question. A scores with 15 seconds left. As new trail, you see B1 immediately take the ball out of the net and step out. You start a count in your head, as one should at this point, for the sake of backing up the game clock. Your count reaches 11, and you look to see B1 still standing out of bounds with the ball, flanked by the new trail, standing passively with hands at his side. Do you blow the whistle at all, or do you let the clock expire, thinking "Boy, die he screw up!"

Do you call travels all over the court when you do not have ball coverage responsibility at all too? What about ruling a player left their designated spot your partner has too? There are a lot of situations we could "think" our partner did not get it right. If one person can do that job, then we do not need 2 or 3 official on the game, just one would be sufficient.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do you call travels all over the court when you do not have ball coverage responsibility at all too? What about ruling a player left their designated spot your partner has too? There are a lot of situations we could "think" our partner did not get it right. If one person can do that job, then we do not need 2 or 3 official on the game, just one would be sufficient.

Peace

No, but I would not be surprised to learn that the guy in the video does. The question at hand is what to do if you find yourself in a game deciding situation with the polar opposite of this guy. How much, if any, does one expand one's normal responsibilities?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How can you be right by doing that? First of all the rules state that the official's signal is what is the judge. Granted our count should be close, but you have just undermined the entire crew by doing this. You cannot be right in a situation like this. This is not like calling in someone's primary, it is literally taking their call from them in every way. It would be like the lead calling a violation on the FT shooter. Or the Lead calling a backcourt violation on a player touching the division line. At best he was guessing as he has no idea when the official judged the ball being at disposal.

Peace

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

This is not unlike that Rutgers/St. Johns game last year where all three officials got suspended for screwing up the end of the game. Only one of them had responsibility according to the mechanics but they all paid for it. All were expected to step up and do the right thing for the game. If any one of them had stepped up and dealt with it, there would have never been an issue. Sure, one of them might have been irritated, but it would have been over and forgotten about.

At the very least, the new lead, after some time, should either be calling the violation or stopping the clock to deal with the unusual delay in the team being able to take the ball OOB for a throwin...and I'm not saying it was enough in the above situation, 8 seconds is not enough to jump in....there was no unusual delay in the ball being available.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Why would new L be watching and counting the 5 second count? Who's watching the other 9 players while this is going on?

That being said, there's some situations where you have to leave and die with what your partner calls or doesn't call.

You don't have to watch it to know. If you have clock awareness, and know that a shot went in a 12 seconds, you know that time can't expire before the throw is released. If you get to 0 without a throwin, no matter who has coverage, you've got a big problem and need to deal with it....you're both responsible, not just the new trail. The new trail might take the most heat but the new lead is not without blame.

Originally Posted by just another ref

No, but I would not be surprised to learn that the guy in the video does. The question at hand is what to do if you find yourself in a game deciding situation with the polar opposite of this guy. How much, if any, does one expand one's normal responsibilities?

If you see it and know it and it is something that every single person in the gym could see and know, you just have to get it right, even if it makes you or your partner look bad for a moment. People will forget about who jumped in to get it when there is an elephant on the court but no one will forget that the crew completely screwed up the game by missing an elephant on the court.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You're both responsible.

Does the old, "Ant Versus Elephant", metaphor apply here?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you see it and know it and it is something that every single person in the gym could see and know, you just have to get it right, even if it makes you or your partner look bad for a moment. People will forget about who jumped in to get it when there is an elephant on the court but no one will forget that the crew completely screwed up the game by missing an elephant on the court.

Some people (see the video in the OP) just do a poor job of judging what is an elephant and what isn't.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

I have no problem calling a foul or violation outside my PCA, if I pause for a second and believe my partner must have been straightlined to miss it. I also have no problem with my partner doing the same, and I make that clear during pre-game.

However, when it comes to throw-ins, if I'm not administering, I'm disengaging from that endline/sideline, and focusing in-bounds. Some things are best to be trusted to your partner.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The crew as a whole is charged with administering the game. Mechanics are a simply a guideline to getting it done....they are not the rules. They are guidelines that should generally, almost exclusively, be followed....but don't let the guidelines rope you in to doing the wrong thing because its not your call. Our first priority is the game. Yes, one official has the responsibility to call it but the entire crew has the responsibility to address an obvious infraction of the rules.

This is not unlike that Rutgers/St. Johns game last year where all three officials got suspended for screwing up the end of the game. Only one of them had responsibility according to the mechanics but they all paid for it. All were expected to step up and do the right thing for the game. If any one of them had stepped up and dealt with it, there would have never been an issue. Sure, one of them might have been irritated, but it would have been over and forgotten about.

At the very least, the new lead, after some time, should either be calling the violation or stopping the clock to deal with the unusual delay in the team being able to take the ball OOB for a throwin...and I'm not saying it was enough in the above situation, 8 seconds is not enough to jump in....there was no unusual delay in the ball being available.

I will put it this way. I am a Back Judge in football. If I call a Roughing the Passer penalty I really need to hang up my whistle and stripped shirt. The other situation you are talking about as far as I remember was not the same as this situation.

And like I used to hear this as a kid, "You can be right and dead at the same time." I think I would have to eat that mistake and let my partner do his job.

Peace

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Still, the question remains, what IF he was right? What if the clock was on 8 (or even 9 or 10 or even more) when the thrower clearly had the ball OOB and was attempting to make the throwin but it ran to 2, 1 or 0? At what point will you blow the whistle to get it right? Are you going to let the thrower have 8-10 seconds? Or will you, at some point, make a crew call?

Nobody here will like this, but the bottom line is, if you are right, you can do anything you want. If you are right, even if you run your partner over, you are still right. Top officials never want to be in those situations, and they are exceptionally rare, but if they have the ability and constitution to make those calls and be 100% correct, that makes them great. Perhaps unpopular for a period of time, but great. The flip side is, the risks in doing so are enormous, and we all beileve in virtually every call we make--until we see the film.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Nobody here will like this, but the bottom line is, if you are right, you can do anything you want. If you are right, even if you run your partner over, you are still right. Top officials never want to be in those situations, and they are exceptionally rare, but if they have the ability and constitution to make those calls and be 100% correct, that makes them great. Perhaps unpopular for a period of time, but great. The flip side is, the risks in doing so are enormous, and we all beileve in virtually every call we make--until we see the film.

The risks are too great. No way I'm even going to have a count. Anyone who makes this call, even if it was right, is driving a bus. You've told everyone who knows anything at all about basketball that you think your partner isn't ready for this game. You've also told them that you, in fact, are the one over his head.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The risks are too great. No way I'm even going to have a count. Anyone who makes this call, even if it was right, is driving a bus. You've told everyone who knows anything at all about basketball that you think your partner isn't ready for this game. You've also told them that you, in fact, are the one over his head.

If a player is clearly standing OOB with the ball for a throwin for 10 seconds with no call from your partner, your partner has already told everyone they've spaced out. Not stopping it at some point tells them you have too. How long would you stand by and act like you had no idea with everyone in the gym knowing it was grossly wrong?