Illegal Substitute?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Above quote transferred over from the Player Control Foul thread.

Wouldn't it be nice if the rule regarding a player's name being added to the book was logical?

Well, as long as your bringing trouble from the other thread... let me bring over the CE thread. (I'm interloping from the other board, but if I understand the two rules correctly this scenario creates a problem that should probably be addressed by clarifying the rule.)

B has 5 fouls when B1 fouls A1 who is not in the book. A1 is erroneously awarded one and one. He makes both and team B gets the ball. Team B inbounds and calls timeout. A6 reports to replace A1 who takes a seat on the bench. During the timeout it comes to the officials knowledge that A1 was not entitled to free throws in a) before it comes to their knowledge that A1 needs to be added to the book or in b) after it comes to their knowledge that A1 needs to be added to the book. Rulings?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by youngump

Well, as long as your bringing trouble from the other thread... let me bring over the CE thread. (I'm interloping from the other board, but if I understand the two rules correctly this scenario creates a problem that should probably be addressed by clarifying the rule.)

B has 5 fouls when B1 fouls A1 who is not in the book. A1 is erroneously awarded one and one. He makes both and team B gets the ball. Team B inbounds and calls timeout. A6 reports to replace A1 who takes a seat on the bench. During the timeout it comes to the officials knowledge that A1 was not entitled to free throws in a) before it comes to their knowledge that A1 needs to be added to the book or in b) after it comes to their knowledge that A1 needs to be added to the book. Rulings?

When does A6 enter the game? It looks like we a have a timeout before the substitution.

Situation A) I believe we're still in the CE timelimit, so we cancel out the inappropriate free throws. Then we penalize Team A for adding a player ito the book.

Ouch.

Situation B) We give a technical to Team A. Now if your question is referring to the free throws for the technical being taken first, then that would put us beyond the CE timelimit, so we would keep the free throws.

I think that's what you are asking, but I had to take liberties with the interpretation.

[BillyMac]

Since A1's free throws were erroneously taken, then there is no need to write anything in the book (points, fouls, missed free throws), so if A1 is now bench personnel, does his name have to be added to the book?

[SNIPERBBB]

Usually scorekeepers keep track of free throw attempts...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Usually scorekeepers keep track of free throw attempts.

But these were erased.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But these were erased.

Erased from where? If the free throws were in the book, A1 was already in the book.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Erased from where? If the free throws were in the book, A1 was already in the book.

And if the scorekeeper added the name to the book after the first free throw, and didn't inform the official about the addition, then it's to late to penalize when the ball becomes live while at the disposal of the free thrower for shot number two. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Toren

When does A6 enter the game? It looks like we a have a timeout before the substitution.

Situation A) I believe we're still in the CE timelimit, so we cancel out the inappropriate free throws. Then we penalize Team A for adding a player ito the book.

Ouch.

Situation B) We give a technical to Team A. Now if your question is referring to the free throws for the technical being taken first, then that would put us beyond the CE timelimit, so we would keep the free throws.

I think that's what you are asking, but I had to take liberties with the interpretation.

BillyMac may have made this clear below, but the point of the example is that A6 enters the game before any of the fun starts. Hence, the case play applies unless you need to add A1 for some other reason. But A1 didn't score if the free throws don't count.