Illegal Substitute?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

There is none, the rules that have been posted are clear.

Clear? A few Forum members have indicated that the rule does seem to present a "gray" area. I am not adamant that I am correct. I also think that the rule is slightly ambiguous.

I would love to see a "clear" rule, or casebook play, where the term "forced" is used to describe the writing of a name in the scorebook.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Heck the coach could ask halfway through the game that a name be added to the list and that player won't step on the court for a second on the court, or even be out of the country, still a T.

Point? Never in dispute. A smart coach would take the "T" when the other team has the ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

The status of the player, either as bench personnel, or as a player, has no bearing when the name is added to the book.

It doesn't? RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. (If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A.

I wish the rules stated that if the officials, maybe even the table "officials", have definite knowledge" that No. 25 participated as a player in the game, that the name must then be written in the scorebook upon discovery, and that a team technical foul will be charged. But the rules just don't say that. They don't. I wish that they did, but they don't.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It doesn't: RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. (If No. 25 attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A.

I wish the rules stated that if the officials, maybe even the table "officials", have definite knowledge" that No. 25 participated as a player in the game, that the name must then be written in the scorebook upon discovery, and that a team technical foul will be charged. But the rules just don't say that. They don't. I wish that they did, but they don't.

I think I will send you and tref Hooked on Phonix .

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Clear? A few Forum members have indicated that the rule does seem to present a "gray" area. I am not adamant that I am correct. I also think that the rule is slightly ambiguous.

I would love to see a "clear" rule, or casebook play, where the term "forced" is used to describe the writing of a name in the scorebook.

If the book had every effin situation in it needed to be clear to you (and some others) it would be 1000 pages long. Your continuous need to ask over and over and over again isn't magically going to get you the answer you want.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Clear? A few Forum members have indicated that the rule does seem to present a "gray" area. I am not adamant that I am correct. I also think that the rule is slightly ambiguous.

I would love to see a "clear" rule, or casebook play, where the term "forced" is used to describe the writing of a name in the scorebook.

The T is for adding a name or changing a number. The fact that I know I called a PC foul on #15 at the 7:00 mark is all I need to direct the scorer to add #15 to the book some point later in the game. At that point it becomes a T.

Are you going to ignore that fact that you called a foul on #15? So, if you call a foul on #20 and the scorer records it as #30 are you saying you are not at some point later in the game going to have the scorer correct that mistake?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Are you going to ignore that fact that you called a foul on #15?

Great question. No, I don't think that the foul should be ignored. I would just like to see some changes in the way this rule is worded.

If #15 played, without fouling, and I know 100% for sure that she played, can I tell the scorekeeper to add her name to the book and charge a team technical foul?

What if #15 played, but didn't score any points, or commit any fouls, but missed the front end of a one and one? Can I tell the scorekeeper to add her name to the book and charge a team technical foul?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The answer you want.

Oh, I already got the answer that I want. A long time ago. The rule is poorly worded. Maybe the rule, by itself, is worded correctly, it's just that the casebook play needs some tinkering.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Logic has nothing to do with it. It's what the rules say.

Above quote transferred over from the Player Control Foul thread.

Wouldn't it be nice if the rule regarding a player's name being added to the book was logical?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Above quote transferred over from the Player Control Foul thread.

Wouldn't it be nice if the rule regarding a player's name being added to the book was logical?

Well, as long as your bringing trouble from the other thread... let me bring over the CE thread. (I'm interloping from the other board, but if I understand the two rules correctly this scenario creates a problem that should probably be addressed by clarifying the rule.)

B has 5 fouls when B1 fouls A1 who is not in the book. A1 is erroneously awarded one and one. He makes both and team B gets the ball. Team B inbounds and calls timeout. A6 reports to replace A1 who takes a seat on the bench. During the timeout it comes to the officials knowledge that A1 was not entitled to free throws in a) before it comes to their knowledge that A1 needs to be added to the book or in b) after it comes to their knowledge that A1 needs to be added to the book. Rulings?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by youngump

Well, as long as your bringing trouble from the other thread... let me bring over the CE thread. (I'm interloping from the other board, but if I understand the two rules correctly this scenario creates a problem that should probably be addressed by clarifying the rule.)

B has 5 fouls when B1 fouls A1 who is not in the book. A1 is erroneously awarded one and one. He makes both and team B gets the ball. Team B inbounds and calls timeout. A6 reports to replace A1 who takes a seat on the bench. During the timeout it comes to the officials knowledge that A1 was not entitled to free throws in a) before it comes to their knowledge that A1 needs to be added to the book or in b) after it comes to their knowledge that A1 needs to be added to the book. Rulings?

When does A6 enter the game? It looks like we a have a timeout before the substitution.

Situation A) I believe we're still in the CE timelimit, so we cancel out the inappropriate free throws. Then we penalize Team A for adding a player ito the book.

Ouch.

Situation B) We give a technical to Team A. Now if your question is referring to the free throws for the technical being taken first, then that would put us beyond the CE timelimit, so we would keep the free throws.

I think that's what you are asking, but I had to take liberties with the interpretation.

[BillyMac]

Since A1's free throws were erroneously taken, then there is no need to write anything in the book (points, fouls, missed free throws), so if A1 is now bench personnel, does his name have to be added to the book?

[SNIPERBBB]

Usually scorekeepers keep track of free throw attempts...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Usually scorekeepers keep track of free throw attempts.

But these were erased.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

But these were erased.

Erased from where? If the free throws were in the book, A1 was already in the book.