Illegal Substitute?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Erased from where? If the free throws were in the book, A1 was already in the book.

And if the scorekeeper added the name to the book after the first free throw, and didn't inform the official about the addition, then it's to late to penalize when the ball becomes live while at the disposal of the free thrower for shot number two. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

Huh? A scorekeeping mistake can be corrected at anytime.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

And if the scorekeeper added the name to the book, and didn't inform the official about the addition......

If the scorer takes it upon himself to add a name and does not inform the officials, there is nothing the officials can do about it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

A score keeping mistake can be corrected at anytime.

A1 erroneously makes two free throws. A few minutes later they are erased. Is this a score keeping mistake, or a correctable error?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 erroneously makes two free throws. A few minutes later they are erased. Is this a score keeping mistake, or a correctable error?

How does A1 erroneously make 2 free throws? Did he attempt to slam the shots off the backboard and they still went in?

Correctable error: A1 shoots free throws he is not entitled to.

Scorekeeping error: A1 is recorded as making 2 free throws but the shots were actually taken by A2.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A1 erroneously makes two free throws. A few minutes later they are erased. Is this a score keeping mistake, or a correctable error?

"BillyMac with a reach."

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Toren

When does A6 enter the game? It looks like we a have a timeout before the substitution.

Situation A) I believe we're still in the CE timelimit, so we cancel out the inappropriate free throws. Then we penalize Team A for adding a player ito the book.

Ouch.

Situation B) We give a technical to Team A. Now if your question is referring to the free throws for the technical being taken first, then that would put us beyond the CE timelimit, so we would keep the free throws.

I think that's what you are asking, but I had to take liberties with the interpretation.

BillyMac may have made this clear below, but the point of the example is that A6 enters the game before any of the fun starts. Hence, the case play applies unless you need to add A1 for some other reason. But A1 didn't score if the free throws don't count.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

How does A1 erroneously make 2 free throws? Did he attempt to slam the shots off the backboard and they still went in?

And how many times have we, and by we, I'm referring to grizzled veterans, seen players trying to miss the free throw, giving their team a chance to get a rebound, and the ball goes in?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Only, if, and when, #15 is, or becomes, one of the five players participating in the game. If #15 is on the bench at the time of discovery, no name will be added to the book. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.

If #15 fouls, #15 is NOT on the bench.

If #15 fouls, then #15 is in the game and is a player.

"Blue, 15, push, 2 shots."
"#15 isn't in the book."
"Technical foul."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

"Blue, 15, push, 2 shots."
"#15 isn't in the book."
"Technical foul."

When the table does it's job, and tells us about the "problem" right away, it makes the rule very easy to administer. It's when we are not informed in a timely manner. That's when the fun begins.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When the table does it's job, and tells us about the "problem" right away, it makes the rule very easy to administer. It's when we are not informed in a timely manner. That's when the fun begins.

What scorer is not going to tell you #15 is not in the book when you stand there and report it?

In all the times I've had this happen, the scorer has never told me after the player was substituted for.

I guess I've never had any fun.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What scorer is not going to tell you #15 is not in the book when you stand there and report it?

In all the times I've had this happen, the scorer has never told me after the player was substituted for.

I guess I've never had any fun.

Common sense rules the day, again.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Common sense rules the day, again.

Careful, the day ain't over.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What scorer is not going to tell you #15 is not in the book when you stand there and report it?

The scorer in Toren's original post in this thread:

4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

That's when all the fun began.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The scorer in Toren's original post in this thread:

4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

That's when all the fun began.

At the very least, you'll get told when #15 commits a foul or scores a point; at which point I'm having them add him to the book and calling the T.

If the R lines through the empty spaces in the book, they won't be able to add anything without your knowledge. Players are not, as far as I know, bench personnel during a timeout.

If it happens and the player is in and out before you're told about the issue, and the scorer does not add them to the book, I'm not going to worry about it. Easy call, no T unless they come in again.

I just don't understand why this is generating so much distress.

The only time it's really a problem is if the scorer adds the name and doesn't tell you. Has anyone actually had that happen more than once in a career?