Illegal Substitute?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Players are not, as far as I know, bench personnel during a timeout.

Correct. The five players before the time out, sans substitutions, are still the five players during the timeout. They are bench personnel during intermissions, and, of course, when they are not one of the five players participating in the game.

The original post in this thread complicated matters by having a substitution made before the discovery of the need for an added name in the scorebook. That's when the fun began.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

At the very least, you'll get told when #15 commits a foul or scores a point; at which point I'm having them add him to the book and calling the T.

When the scorekeeper does his job, this is a pretty straightforward technical foul.

The only technical foul that I ever had to charge for this infraction, in a high school varsity game, happened in such a simple manner. We've got A12 on the free throw line for two shots. He makes the first shot. Scorekeeper sounds the horn, and calls me over to the table. "A12 is not in the book. Got the name, but the number is wrong". I asked to see the list that the home scorekeeper used to copy the names, and numbers, into the scorebook. A12's correct uniform number was not on the submitted list. We add A12's correct number into the scorebook. We clear the lane and allow A12 his second free throw. We go down to the other end and allow Team B to shoot two free throws for the technical foul, and we give Team B the ball at the division line, opposite the table, for a throwin.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Correct. The five players before the time out, sans substitutions, are still the five players during the timeout. They are bench personnel during intermissions, and, of course, when they are not one of the five players participating in the game.

The original post in this thread complicated matters by having a substitution made before the discovery of the need for an added name in the scorebook. that's when the fun began.

How? It's simple, if you have to add the name, do it and call the T.

When do you have to add it? When the player is still playing, when the player scored, or when the player committed a foul.

If you don't, then just smile and move on.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If it happens and the player is in and out before you're told about the issue, and the scorer does not add them to the book, I'm not going to worry about it. Easy call, no T unless they come in again.

I was of that opinion earlier in the thread, and I had a citation to prove it (No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game), but a few esteemed members have me questioning how to handle this correctly.

That's why this thread is so much fun.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The only time it's really a problem is if the scorer adds the name and doesn't tell you. Has anyone actually had that happen more than once in a career?

Still easy to handle. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

When do you have to add it? When the player is still playing, when the player scored, or when the player committed a foul.

How about a missed free throw? Scorekeepers are required to list those.

How I wish that the rule, and penalty, would read that way. How I wish that the casebook never included the statement: No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game.

Still having fun?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

How about a missed free throw? Scorekeepers are required to list those.

How I wish that the rule, and penalty, would read that way. How I wish that the casebook never included the statement: No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game.

Still having fun?

Nope, you're overcomplicating a simple issue. If the case play involved a player who had fouled or scored, I'd say ignore it then, too. But it doesn't, so I don't think it applies to a situation where a player scores or fouls. If they're required to note missed free throws (I just don't know), then that's good enough, too.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

When do you have to add it? When the player is still playing, when the player scored, or when the player committed a foul.

I would love to see a citation for, "When the player scored, or when the player committed a foul", but I'm probably not going to get it, nor will I disagree with those who believe that this is the correct interpretation. I will continue to question it, to get additional citations, or an interpretation from the NFHS, or from an esteemed interpreter, IAABO (for me), or otherwise, but I'm not going to disagree. This is a case where the citation is common sense, but it would be nice to get something in writing.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're overcomplicating a simple issue.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the case play involved a player who had fouled or scored, I'd say ignore it then, too. But it doesn't, so I don't think it applies to a situation where a player scores or fouls.

The caseplay doesn't say that the player in question fouled or scored, but it doesn't say that the player in question didn't either. It just doesn't give us enough information. It gives us no information in regard to what A25 does, or doesn't do, during his time as a player. That's why this is so much fun. Still having fun?

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the case play involved a player who had fouled or scored, I'd say ignore it then, too. But it doesn't, so I don't think it applies to a situation where a player scores or fouls.

These (in blue) sound like opinions. Opinions that I value, not only from Snaqwells, but from several other esteemed Forum members. These opinions have me questioning my original interpretation of this situation, but I would love to be further convinced.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If they're required to note missed free throws (I just don't know), then that's good enough, too.

The scorer shall:
ART. 1 Keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start
the game and of all substitutes who enter the game.
ART. 2 Notify the nearer official when there is an infraction of the rules
pertaining to submission of the roster, substitutions or numbers of players.
ART. 4 Record the field goals made, the free throws made and missed, and
keep a running summary of the points scored.
ART. 5 Record the personal and technical fouls reported on each player and
notify an official immediately when the fifth foul (personal and technical) is
charged to any player, the second technical foul is charged to any team member,
bench personnel, or directly to the head coach, or the third technical foul is
charged to the head coach.
ART. 6 Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and
when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is
granted its final allotted charged time-out.

Not only can we get information from the scorekeeper about who scores, and commits fouls, we can also get information from the scorekeeper regarding all substitutes who enter the game, free throws missed, and who requests, and is granted, a timeout.

So while a participant is sitting on the bench, can we use any of the scorekeeper's information to "force" an addition to the scorebook and charge a technical foul, like that he was charged with a timeout, that he missed a free throw, or that he was recorded as a substitute who entered the game?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So while a participant is sitting on the bench, can we use any of the scorekeeper's information to "force" an addition to the scorebook and charge a technical foul, like that he was charged with a timeout, that he missed a free throw, or that he was recorded as a substitute who entered the game?

Yes. I'd like to revisit this. Plus I love to quote myself. It makes me feel impotent.

Several have mentioned the idea of using points scored, or fouls committed, to "force" a name, or a number, being added to the scorebook. Why not use the scorekeeper's record of a substitute entering the game? Isn't that enough to charge a technical foul. What's so special about points, and fouls, and not substitutes? If points, and fouls, "trump" the, "No penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game" statement in the casebook play, then why not use a record of the player in question being a substitute that entered the game? If we can use any of the information that is supposed to be recored in the scorebook to "trump" the "No penalty assessed" casebook statement, then when would the, "No penalty assessed", statement ever be used?

Man. This is like peeling away the layers of an onion. Anybody else feel like crying?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I would love to see a citation for, "When the player scored, or when the player committed a foul",...

That's not included because it's assumed the scorer is competent since the referee has already approved him/her and will notify the officials when it's found the player isn't listed.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Yes. I'd like to revisit this.

Be my guest. I think the rest of us are tired of this dead horse.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

That's not included because it's assumed the scorer is competent since the referee has already approved him/her and will notify the officials when it's found the player isn't listed.

The problem is is that the scorekeeper in the original post of this thread was a little to slow in informing the officials about the problem. That's what makes this so much fun.

A competent scorekeeper at the table makes the rule really easy to interpret, and, or course, a lot less fun.