Illegal Substitute?

[Toren]

4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

I have a few thoughts go through my head: We're in a timeout, so as long as coach doesn't play her again, we don't penalize the team a technical...wait, we have to penalize because she committed a foul, so the coach has to add her to the book at a price of a technical. Hmm, not really sure.

So we go with what everyone expected. A technical.

After the game, partner and I both pull out books and we find case play 3.2.2 situation c (I don't currently have my book, so I hope I'm remembering that case play correctly). But it basically states, during an intermission the scorer identify's that a player was not listed in the book and the ruling is we don't penalize as long as that player doesn't re enter.

Did we administer correctly? or was this an "exception" because we granted the timeout already? or perhaps a different reason?

[bob jenkins]

Still a T.

[Toren]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Still a T.

Thanks for the quick response. Is that because she committed a foul? Therefore, the coach has to add that player to the book?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Toren

4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

I have a few thoughts go through my head: We're in a timeout, so as long as coach doesn't play her again, we don't penalize the team a technical...wait, we have to penalize because she committed a foul, so the coach has to add her to the book at a price of a technical. Hmm, not really sure.

So we go with what everyone expected. A technical.

After the game, partner and I both pull out books and we find case play 3.2.2 situation c (I don't currently have my book, so I hope I'm remembering that case play correctly). But it basically states, during an intermission the scorer identify's that a player was not listed in the book and the ruling is we don't penalize as long as that player doesn't re enter.

Did we administer correctly? or was this an "exception" because we granted the timeout already? or perhaps a different reason?

The T here is for adding a team member to the book & its penalized when it occurs. Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.

Who was the R & you know how to prevent this, right?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by tref

The T here is for "adding a team member to the book" & its penalized when it occurs. Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.

Who was the R & you know how to prevent this, right?

My partner was the R. I assume you mean prior to the jump ball, but the JV game ended late and the varsity teams had exactly 10 minutes to warm up. So my partner went to check on the book at 10 but it wasn't close to ready, we did captain and coaches meetings, still not ready.

The book wasn't officially ready until something like 2 minutes prior to the game. So I'm sure this was exactly why it occured. But given the situation, I'm not sure what else the R could have done.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Toren

The book wasn't officially ready until something like 2 minutes prior to the game. So I'm sure this was exactly why it occured. But given the situation, I'm not sure what else the R could have done.

1. ALWAYS count the players on the floor & in the bench area, whenever the book is ready if there are less in the book than you originally counted there may be a problem.

2. While observing the players warm up ask one of the good players if they always run with 10 or whatever the number is. Good opportunity to get one on your side.

3. Before signing the book, allow each coach one last look-see to verify their starting 5 & eligibles are correct. That way if you ever have to take care of business, they know that you afforded them every opportunity to make it right.

Guess whos checking the book tomorrow nite!!

[Toren]

Originally Posted by tref

1. ALWAYS count the players on the floor & in the bench area, whenever the book is ready if there are less in the book than you originally counted there may be a problem.

2. While observing the players warm up ask one of the good players if they always run with 10 or whatever the number is.

3. Before signing the book, allow each coach one last look-see to verify their starting 5 & eligibles are correct. That way if you ever have to take care of business, they know that you afforded them every opportunity to make it right.

Guess whos checking the book tomorrow nite!!

Great tips. I will certainly use them the next time I'm the R.

Too bad, I'm not the R for tomorrow

[tref]

In my games everybody is assigned a duty, now you get 2

[BillyMac]

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member or player’s uniform number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for that team’s administrative infraction

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Toren

Case play 3.2.2 situation c

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Toren

Was this an "exception" because we granted the timeout already?

She's still a player during the timeout.

Now if this happened during an intermission, she would then be considered bench personnel. Would that make a difference, especially if she were substituted for during the timeout?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

She's still a player during the timeout.

Now if this happened during an intermission, she would then be considered bench personnel. Would that make a difference, especially if she were substituted for during the timeout?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Because of the foul, no.

[jkumpire]

Isn't the real problem the fact that there is only 10 minutes between the end of the JV game and the start of the Varsity game?

Where is game management in all this? Only allowing 10 minutes to get ready for a HS Varsity contest? If I was one of the two officials involved I would have talked to someone about this, be it local game management before the start or the state association after the contest. This is unfair to the players and everyone else involved.

what could the crew do in this case to try and change the timing of the pre-game warmup?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Isn't the real problem the fact that there is only 10 minutes between the end of the JV game and the start of the Varsity game?

10 minutes is plenty of time, in my opinion. But if there are only 10 minutes, it makes the rules regarding the book inapplicable.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

This case play is fairly recent and dead wrong in my opinion. Per rule 2-11 the scorer is required to keep a record of all players and substitutes who enter the game. Guess where that record is kept? Yep, the scorebook, so that team member must be entered into the scorebook and a T assessed. The person who authored the ruling to part (b) of the above play ruling for the NFHS doesn't know the darn rules.