The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 16, 2011, 10:36am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Denver Colorado
Posts: 736
Illegal Substitute?

4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

I have a few thoughts go through my head: We're in a timeout, so as long as coach doesn't play her again, we don't penalize the team a technical...wait, we have to penalize because she committed a foul, so the coach has to add her to the book at a price of a technical. Hmm, not really sure.

So we go with what everyone expected. A technical.

After the game, partner and I both pull out books and we find case play 3.2.2 situation c (I don't currently have my book, so I hope I'm remembering that case play correctly). But it basically states, during an intermission the scorer identify's that a player was not listed in the book and the ruling is we don't penalize as long as that player doesn't re enter.

Did we administer correctly? or was this an "exception" because we granted the timeout already? or perhaps a different reason?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 16, 2011, 10:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,185
Still a T.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 16, 2011, 10:46am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Denver Colorado
Posts: 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Still a T.
Thanks for the quick response. Is that because she committed a foul? Therefore, the coach has to add that player to the book?
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 16, 2011, 10:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toren View Post
4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

I have a few thoughts go through my head: We're in a timeout, so as long as coach doesn't play her again, we don't penalize the team a technical...wait, we have to penalize because she committed a foul, so the coach has to add her to the book at a price of a technical. Hmm, not really sure.

So we go with what everyone expected. A technical.

After the game, partner and I both pull out books and we find case play 3.2.2 situation c (I don't currently have my book, so I hope I'm remembering that case play correctly). But it basically states, during an intermission the scorer identify's that a player was not listed in the book and the ruling is we don't penalize as long as that player doesn't re enter.

Did we administer correctly? or was this an "exception" because we granted the timeout already? or perhaps a different reason?
The T here is for adding a team member to the book & its penalized when it occurs. Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.

Who was the R & you know how to prevent this, right?
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 16, 2011, 10:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Denver Colorado
Posts: 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
The T here is for "adding a team member to the book" & its penalized when it occurs. Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.

Who was the R & you know how to prevent this, right?
My partner was the R. I assume you mean prior to the jump ball, but the JV game ended late and the varsity teams had exactly 10 minutes to warm up. So my partner went to check on the book at 10 but it wasn't close to ready, we did captain and coaches meetings, still not ready.

The book wasn't officially ready until something like 2 minutes prior to the game. So I'm sure this was exactly why it occured. But given the situation, I'm not sure what else the R could have done.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 16, 2011, 11:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toren View Post
The book wasn't officially ready until something like 2 minutes prior to the game. So I'm sure this was exactly why it occured. But given the situation, I'm not sure what else the R could have done.
1. ALWAYS count the players on the floor & in the bench area, whenever the book is ready if there are less in the book than you originally counted there may be a problem.

2. While observing the players warm up ask one of the good players if they always run with 10 or whatever the number is. Good opportunity to get one on your side.

3. Before signing the book, allow each coach one last look-see to verify their starting 5 & eligibles are correct. That way if you ever have to take care of business, they know that you afforded them every opportunity to make it right.

Guess whos checking the book tomorrow nite!!
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 16, 2011, 11:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Denver Colorado
Posts: 736
Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
1. ALWAYS count the players on the floor & in the bench area, whenever the book is ready if there are less in the book than you originally counted there may be a problem.

2. While observing the players warm up ask one of the good players if they always run with 10 or whatever the number is.

3. Before signing the book, allow each coach one last look-see to verify their starting 5 & eligibles are correct. That way if you ever have to take care of business, they know that you afforded them every opportunity to make it right.

Guess whos checking the book tomorrow nite!!
Great tips. I will certainly use them the next time I'm the R.

Too bad, I'm not the R for tomorrow
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Dec 16, 2011, 11:09am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,183
In my games everybody is assigned a duty, now you get 2
__________________
I gotta new attitude!
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 18, 2011, 11:11am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,371
Not Relevant ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.
The fact that the player committed a foul is not relevant, other than it probably called attention to the fact that she wasn't listed in the scorebook.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 18, 2011, 09:17pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
The fact that the player committed a foul is not relevant, other than it probably called attention to the fact that she wasn't listed in the scorebook.
The officials have knowledge that a foul was committed by #15 and #15 is not in the book then #15 will entered in the book and a 'T' will be assessed.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2011, 01:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I was wondering when someone would point this out.

The other thing to do in this type of situation is to notice if there is a game program with the roster printed in it.
This is one of my pet peeves when dealing with other officials. Guys get so hung up on this stuff about "The book isn't ready yet". Around here, the vast majority of visiting teams just supply their scorebook to the scorer (Who has the home book at the table), and the scorer copies the visitor's roster from their scorebook into the main book. If the scorer hasn't done that yet, I just make sure the number of visiting players match up with how many players they have listed in their book, and sign both books and get it over with. I'm not going to stand there and watch the scorer copy 14 players into the home book.

That reminds me that I had a "veteran" partner last year who gave a T to a team in a tournament who had supplied their roster to the scorer before the game. The scorer had left one player off (Not sure which one of us missed this while signing the book). When the player entered the game, the team in question showed us that the player was on the roster they supplied, and the scorer agreed that he/she had messed up, but my partner was adamant that the T should be given. I tried to tell him that it is a scorer's error, but he was having none of it. The better part was that when the other team's coach started to have one of his bench players shoot the technical foul shots, my partner told him that only the five players on the court can shoot free throws for a technical. I tried to reason with him on both things, but he wouldn't even huddle with me to discuss it. He told me afterwards that he didn't want to get together because us talking makes it look like we don't know what we're doing.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:29am
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
I probably would have retorted that jacking up the rules like that is even worse.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:33am
Aleve Titles to Others
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East Westchester of the Southern Conference
Posts: 5,381
Send a message via AIM to 26 Year Gap
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 View Post
This is one of my pet peeves when dealing with other officials. Guys get so hung up on this stuff about "The book isn't ready yet". Around here, the vast majority of visiting teams just supply their scorebook to the scorer (Who has the home book at the table), and the scorer copies the visitor's roster from their scorebook into the main book. If the scorer hasn't done that yet, I just make sure the number of visiting players match up with how many players they have listed in their book, and sign both books and get it over with. I'm not going to stand there and watch the scorer copy 14 players into the home book.

That reminds me that I had a "veteran" partner last year who gave a T to a team in a tournament who had supplied their roster to the scorer before the game. The scorer had left one player off (Not sure which one of us missed this while signing the book). When the player entered the game, the team in question showed us that the player was on the roster they supplied, and the scorer agreed that he/she had messed up, but my partner was adamant that the T should be given. I tried to tell him that it is a scorer's error, but he was having none of it. The better part was that when the other team's coach started to have one of his bench players shoot the technical foul shots, my partner told him that only the five players on the court can shoot free throws for a technical. I tried to reason with him on both things, but he wouldn't even huddle with me to discuss it. He told me afterwards that he didn't want to get together because us talking makes it look like we don't know what we're doing.
And you said, "What's this 'we' stuff?"
__________________
Never hit a piñata if you see hornets flying out of it.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2011, 07:02am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 23,371
Just My Opinion ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
The officials have knowledge that a foul was committed by #15 and #15 is not in the book then #15 will entered in the book and a 'T' will be assessed.
Only, if, and when, #15 is, or becomes, one of the five players participating in the game. If #15 is on the bench at the time of discovery, no name will be added to the book. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Dec 19, 2011 at 07:34am.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 19, 2011, 08:42am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,950
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Only, if, and when, #15 is, or becomes, one of the five players participating in the game. If #15 is on the bench at the time of discovery, no name will be added to the book. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.
Nope. #15 committed a foul. My crew and I have definite knowledge that #15 committed a foul and we want that foul properly recorded in the book. Would do the same if #15 scored and the crew and/or scorer had definite knowledge that #15 scored a point, then #15 is going in the book and a T is being administered.

The T is for adding a name to or changing a number in the book. If #15 did something that needs to be recorded in the book then there is going to be a T administered.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Illegal Substitute Huskerblue Baseball 5 Mon Mar 31, 2008 03:16pm
OBR - illegal substitute David Emerling Baseball 3 Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:22pm
illegal substitute dpomeroy Baseball 3 Thu Jul 08, 2004 08:21am
illegal substitute dpomeroy Baseball 2 Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:58pm
Illegal Courtesy Runner But Legal Substitute!!! Gre144 Baseball 9 Mon Apr 09, 2001 08:10am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:39pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1