Illegal Substitute?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.

Reference, please.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Toren

Case play 3.2.2 situation c

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

3.2.2 SITUATION C: Team A substitute No. 25 reports to the table for the first
time with approximately one minute remaining in the second quarter and is beckoned
onto the court. In (a), the ball is put in play by a throw-in from A1 to A2.
The horn sounds and the scorer informs the officials that No. 25 is not listed in
the scorebook. In (b), No. 25 plays the remainder of the second quarter. During
halftime intermission, the official scorer realizes No. 25 is not listed in the scorebook
and informs the officials when they return to the court before the start of
the third quarter. RULING: In (a), No. 25 is currently in the game and became a
player when he/she legally entered the court. Since his or her name and number
must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A.
In (b), no penalty is assessed since No. 25 is not currently in the game. If No. 25
attempts to enter the game in the second half, his or her name and number will
be added to the scorebook and a technical foul charged to Team A. (3-2-2b; 10-
1-2b)

This case play is fairly recent and dead wrong in my opinion. Per rule 2-11 the scorer is required to keep a record of all players and substitutes who enter the game. Guess where that record is kept? Yep, the scorebook, so that team member must be entered into the scorebook and a T assessed. The person who authored the ruling to part (b) of the above play ruling for the NFHS doesn't know the darn rules.

[refiator]

Great case play for group discussion. I agree that a "T" must be assessed as he is a player during the TO.

[cmhjordan23]

In our area, if it is a JV and Varsity game, Varsity game is always 20 minutes after the completion of JV game.

[JugglingReferee]

This problem about not having enough time to enter the roster after the JV is so easily solved...........

Tell the school to buy a second scorebook! Scorebooks are cheap and they'll use them anyways. They can buy 1 every year, or 2 every two years.

Most teams are present well before 10 minutes before their tip-off time. They can likely fill out the scoresheet 30 minutes before tip-off!

Problem solved.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by refiator

I agree that a "T" must be assessed as he is a player during the TO.

Especially since it's a girls game.

[Terrapins Fan]

Nevadaref, I agree with you, but the rule is the rule. It should be changed in my opinion.

Good thread, we are always learning.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Toren

Was this an "exception" because we granted the timeout already?

She's still a player during the timeout.

Now if this happened during an intermission, she would then be considered bench personnel. Would that make a difference, especially if she were substituted for during the timeout?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

She's still a player during the timeout.

Now if this happened during an intermission, she would then be considered bench personnel. Would that make a difference, especially if she were substituted for during the timeout?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Because of the foul, no.

[jkumpire]

Isn't the real problem the fact that there is only 10 minutes between the end of the JV game and the start of the Varsity game?

Where is game management in all this? Only allowing 10 minutes to get ready for a HS Varsity contest? If I was one of the two officials involved I would have talked to someone about this, be it local game management before the start or the state association after the contest. This is unfair to the players and everyone else involved.

what could the crew do in this case to try and change the timing of the pre-game warmup?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Isn't the real problem the fact that there is only 10 minutes between the end of the JV game and the start of the Varsity game?

10 minutes is plenty of time, in my opinion. But if there are only 10 minutes, it makes the rules regarding the book inapplicable.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Isn't the real problem the fact that there is only 10 minutes between the end of the JV game and the start of the Varsity game?

Where is game management in all this? Only allowing 10 minutes to get ready for a HS Varsity contest? If I was one of the two officials involved I would have talked to someone about this, be it local game management before the start or the state association after the contest. This is unfair to the players and everyone else involved.

what could the crew do in this case to try and change the timing of the pre-game warmup?

Many schools have an auxillary gym where the varsity teams can warm up during the JV game. If that is the case, then 10 minutes on the game court prior to starting play is plenty of time and presents no risk of injury to the student-athletes.
If the teams are starting out cold without the benefit of some place to warm-up and you feel that 10 minutes is not enough time, simply consult both coaches on how much time each team needs and give them that. Don't risk an injury to a kid because someone is in a hurry.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Isn't the real problem the fact that there is only 10 minutes between the end of the JV game and the start of the Varsity game?

Where is game management in all this? Only allowing 10 minutes to get ready for a HS Varsity contest? If I was one of the two officials involved I would have talked to someone about this, be it local game management before the start or the state association after the contest. This is unfair to the players and everyone else involved.

what could the crew do in this case to try and change the timing of the pre-game warmup?

Good one, but you forgot the sarcasm tags.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Good one, but you forgot the sarcasm tags.

Really. I would be thrilled beyond belief if we only had 10 minutes. In Wisconsin, it's 20 l-o-n-g minutes and we have to stand out there for all of it.