Illegal Substitute?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Isn't the real problem the fact that there is only 10 minutes between the end of the JV game and the start of the Varsity game?

Where is game management in all this? Only allowing 10 minutes to get ready for a HS Varsity contest? If I was one of the two officials involved I would have talked to someone about this, be it local game management before the start or the state association after the contest. This is unfair to the players and everyone else involved.

what could the crew do in this case to try and change the timing of the pre-game warmup?

Many schools have an auxillary gym where the varsity teams can warm up during the JV game. If that is the case, then 10 minutes on the game court prior to starting play is plenty of time and presents no risk of injury to the student-athletes.
If the teams are starting out cold without the benefit of some place to warm-up and you feel that 10 minutes is not enough time, simply consult both coaches on how much time each team needs and give them that. Don't risk an injury to a kid because someone is in a hurry.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Isn't the real problem the fact that there is only 10 minutes between the end of the JV game and the start of the Varsity game?

Where is game management in all this? Only allowing 10 minutes to get ready for a HS Varsity contest? If I was one of the two officials involved I would have talked to someone about this, be it local game management before the start or the state association after the contest. This is unfair to the players and everyone else involved.

what could the crew do in this case to try and change the timing of the pre-game warmup?

Good one, but you forgot the sarcasm tags.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Good one, but you forgot the sarcasm tags.

Really. I would be thrilled beyond belief if we only had 10 minutes. In Wisconsin, it's 20 l-o-n-g minutes and we have to stand out there for all of it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Now if this happened during an intermission, she would then be considered bench personnel. Would that make a difference, especially if she were substituted for during the timeout?

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Because of the foul, no.

Why does the foul, or lack of, have anything to do with it? In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. It's an intermisson, not a timeout. She's bench personnel. Nobody is one of the five players currently in the game. I'm not sure that I disagree with you, it's just that I think that this needs further discussion.

[refiator]

Great case play for group discussion. I agree that a "T" must be assessed as he is a player during the TO.

[cmhjordan23]

In our area, if it is a JV and Varsity game, Varsity game is always 20 minutes after the completion of JV game.

[JugglingReferee]

This problem about not having enough time to enter the roster after the JV is so easily solved...........

Tell the school to buy a second scorebook! Scorebooks are cheap and they'll use them anyways. They can buy 1 every year, or 2 every two years.

Most teams are present well before 10 minutes before their tip-off time. They can likely fill out the scoresheet 30 minutes before tip-off!

Problem solved.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

This problem about not having enough time to enter the roster after the JV is so easily solved...........

It can alsow be solved by having officials read the rules -- the book is not required to be completed 10-minutes before tip-off.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Why does the foul, or lack of, have anything to do with it? In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. It's an intermisson, not a timeout. She's bench personnel. Nobody is one of the five players currently in the game. I'm not sure that I disagree with you, it's just that I think that this needs further discussion.

If the foul is to be recorded, there will be a change needed to be made in the book unless the scorer is that far gone or duplicitous. So if scorers add the name after the player is now BP, but dont assess the T...do we now have a delayed T for if the player comes back in the game?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

If the foul is to be recorded, there will be a change needed to be made in the book unless the scorer is that far gone or duplicitous. So if scorers add the name after the player is now BP, but don't assess the T, do we now have a delayed T for if the player comes back in the game?

No technical foul charged. It's too late. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize.

And by "it", the NFHS means that the name being written into the scorebook.

If the name had never been added to the scorebook, then there would be a technical foul charged only if, and when, the player re-entered the game. If the player never re-entered the game, there would be no technical foul charged.

Remember, the technical foul is not for the unlisted player playing, it's for the unlisted player's name being added to the scorebook.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It can alsow be solved by having officials read the rules -- the book is not required to be completed 10-minutes before tip-off.

I was wondering when someone would point this out.

The other thing to do in this type of situation is to notice if there is a game program with the roster printed in it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by tref

Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.

The fact that the player committed a foul is not relevant, other than it probably called attention to the fact that she wasn't listed in the scorebook.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by refiator

I agree that a "T" must be assessed as he is a player during the TO.

Especially since it's a girls game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The fact that the player committed a foul is not relevant, other than it probably called attention to the fact that she wasn't listed in the scorebook.

The officials have knowledge that a foul was committed by #15 and #15 is not in the book then #15 will entered in the book and a 'T' will be assessed.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I was wondering when someone would point this out.

The other thing to do in this type of situation is to notice if there is a game program with the roster printed in it.

This is one of my pet peeves when dealing with other officials. Guys get so hung up on this stuff about "The book isn't ready yet". Around here, the vast majority of visiting teams just supply their scorebook to the scorer (Who has the home book at the table), and the scorer copies the visitor's roster from their scorebook into the main book. If the scorer hasn't done that yet, I just make sure the number of visiting players match up with how many players they have listed in their book, and sign both books and get it over with. I'm not going to stand there and watch the scorer copy 14 players into the home book.

That reminds me that I had a "veteran" partner last year who gave a T to a team in a tournament who had supplied their roster to the scorer before the game. The scorer had left one player off (Not sure which one of us missed this while signing the book). When the player entered the game, the team in question showed us that the player was on the roster they supplied, and the scorer agreed that he/she had messed up, but my partner was adamant that the T should be given. I tried to tell him that it is a scorer's error, but he was having none of it. The better part was that when the other team's coach started to have one of his bench players shoot the technical foul shots, my partner told him that only the five players on the court can shoot free throws for a technical. I tried to reason with him on both things, but he wouldn't even huddle with me to discuss it. He told me afterwards that he didn't want to get together because us talking makes it look like we don't know what we're doing.