Illegal Substitute?

[tref]

Originally Posted by Toren

4th quarter girls varsity game last night. Player #15 commits a foul that my partner has a whistle on. He goes and reports the foul and then the coach asks for a timeout. My partner grants the full timeout. All players go to their respective benches. The score table calls my partner over and informs him that player #15 is not in the book.

I have a few thoughts go through my head: We're in a timeout, so as long as coach doesn't play her again, we don't penalize the team a technical...wait, we have to penalize because she committed a foul, so the coach has to add her to the book at a price of a technical. Hmm, not really sure.

So we go with what everyone expected. A technical.

After the game, partner and I both pull out books and we find case play 3.2.2 situation c (I don't currently have my book, so I hope I'm remembering that case play correctly). But it basically states, during an intermission the scorer identify's that a player was not listed in the book and the ruling is we don't penalize as long as that player doesn't re enter.

Did we administer correctly? or was this an "exception" because we granted the timeout already? or perhaps a different reason?

The T here is for adding a team member to the book & its penalized when it occurs. Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.

Who was the R & you know how to prevent this, right?

[Toren]

Originally Posted by tref

The T here is for "adding a team member to the book" & its penalized when it occurs. Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.

Who was the R & you know how to prevent this, right?

My partner was the R. I assume you mean prior to the jump ball, but the JV game ended late and the varsity teams had exactly 10 minutes to warm up. So my partner went to check on the book at 10 but it wasn't close to ready, we did captain and coaches meetings, still not ready.

The book wasn't officially ready until something like 2 minutes prior to the game. So I'm sure this was exactly why it occured. But given the situation, I'm not sure what else the R could have done.

[tref]

Originally Posted by Toren

The book wasn't officially ready until something like 2 minutes prior to the game. So I'm sure this was exactly why it occured. But given the situation, I'm not sure what else the R could have done.

1. ALWAYS count the players on the floor & in the bench area, whenever the book is ready if there are less in the book than you originally counted there may be a problem.

2. While observing the players warm up ask one of the good players if they always run with 10 or whatever the number is. Good opportunity to get one on your side.

3. Before signing the book, allow each coach one last look-see to verify their starting 5 & eligibles are correct. That way if you ever have to take care of business, they know that you afforded them every opportunity to make it right.

Guess whos checking the book tomorrow nite!!

[Toren]

Originally Posted by tref

1. ALWAYS count the players on the floor & in the bench area, whenever the book is ready if there are less in the book than you originally counted there may be a problem.

2. While observing the players warm up ask one of the good players if they always run with 10 or whatever the number is.

3. Before signing the book, allow each coach one last look-see to verify their starting 5 & eligibles are correct. That way if you ever have to take care of business, they know that you afforded them every opportunity to make it right.

Guess whos checking the book tomorrow nite!!

Great tips. I will certainly use them the next time I'm the R.

Too bad, I'm not the R for tomorrow

[tref]

In my games everybody is assigned a duty, now you get 2

[BillyMac]

Many administrative infractions can involve the scorebook and rosters. If a team adds a name to the team roster after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name and uniform number must be entered into the official scorebook. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game. In addition, if a team requires the official scorer to change a team member or player’s uniform number in the official scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit, then a team technical foul is charged. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

Three scorebook situations: adding a name to the team roster, changing a name or a number in the official scorebook, and/or having a player change a uniform number, are penalized with a team technical foul when they occur, after the ten minute time limit. These infractions occur when the scorer is advised to add to or change the official scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball becomes live, after such changes have been made to the scorebook, it is too late to penalize. Remember, the ball becomes live when: on a jump ball, the tossed ball leaves the referee’s hand; on a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower; and on a free throw, it is at the disposal of the free thrower.

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for that team’s administrative infraction

[tophat67]

After the ten minute time limit a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed: changing a designated starter, adding a name to the team member list, requiring the scorer to change a team member’s or player’s number in the scorebook, requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook, and/or having identical numbers on team members and/or players. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook, or change the official scorebook number to that the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the official scorebook will not result in a penalty, as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for that team’s administrative infraction

So what happens in this case. At the 5 minute mark of the 1st quarter, #10 who's not in the book enters the game. We are notified and access the technical. At the 2 minute mark of the 1st quarter, #35 now enters the game who is also not in the book. This implies that we do not access the technical since we already accessed a book technical when player #10 entered the game. Is that correct?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by tref

Since the player committed a foul, I believe they have to be added.

The fact that the player committed a foul is not relevant, other than it probably called attention to the fact that she wasn't listed in the scorebook.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

The fact that the player committed a foul is not relevant, other than it probably called attention to the fact that she wasn't listed in the scorebook.

The officials have knowledge that a foul was committed by #15 and #15 is not in the book then #15 will entered in the book and a 'T' will be assessed.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I was wondering when someone would point this out.

The other thing to do in this type of situation is to notice if there is a game program with the roster printed in it.

This is one of my pet peeves when dealing with other officials. Guys get so hung up on this stuff about "The book isn't ready yet". Around here, the vast majority of visiting teams just supply their scorebook to the scorer (Who has the home book at the table), and the scorer copies the visitor's roster from their scorebook into the main book. If the scorer hasn't done that yet, I just make sure the number of visiting players match up with how many players they have listed in their book, and sign both books and get it over with. I'm not going to stand there and watch the scorer copy 14 players into the home book.

That reminds me that I had a "veteran" partner last year who gave a T to a team in a tournament who had supplied their roster to the scorer before the game. The scorer had left one player off (Not sure which one of us missed this while signing the book). When the player entered the game, the team in question showed us that the player was on the roster they supplied, and the scorer agreed that he/she had messed up, but my partner was adamant that the T should be given. I tried to tell him that it is a scorer's error, but he was having none of it. The better part was that when the other team's coach started to have one of his bench players shoot the technical foul shots, my partner told him that only the five players on the court can shoot free throws for a technical. I tried to reason with him on both things, but he wouldn't even huddle with me to discuss it. He told me afterwards that he didn't want to get together because us talking makes it look like we don't know what we're doing.

[Adam]

I probably would have retorted that jacking up the rules like that is even worse.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by zm1283

This is one of my pet peeves when dealing with other officials. Guys get so hung up on this stuff about "The book isn't ready yet". Around here, the vast majority of visiting teams just supply their scorebook to the scorer (Who has the home book at the table), and the scorer copies the visitor's roster from their scorebook into the main book. If the scorer hasn't done that yet, I just make sure the number of visiting players match up with how many players they have listed in their book, and sign both books and get it over with. I'm not going to stand there and watch the scorer copy 14 players into the home book.

That reminds me that I had a "veteran" partner last year who gave a T to a team in a tournament who had supplied their roster to the scorer before the game. The scorer had left one player off (Not sure which one of us missed this while signing the book). When the player entered the game, the team in question showed us that the player was on the roster they supplied, and the scorer agreed that he/she had messed up, but my partner was adamant that the T should be given. I tried to tell him that it is a scorer's error, but he was having none of it. The better part was that when the other team's coach started to have one of his bench players shoot the technical foul shots, my partner told him that only the five players on the court can shoot free throws for a technical. I tried to reason with him on both things, but he wouldn't even huddle with me to discuss it. He told me afterwards that he didn't want to get together because us talking makes it look like we don't know what we're doing.

And you said, "What's this 'we' stuff?"

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The officials have knowledge that a foul was committed by #15 and #15 is not in the book then #15 will entered in the book and a 'T' will be assessed.

Only, if, and when, #15 is, or becomes, one of the five players participating in the game. If #15 is on the bench at the time of discovery, no name will be added to the book. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Only, if, and when, #15 is, or becomes, one of the five players participating in the game. If #15 is on the bench at the time of discovery, no name will be added to the book. In order to penalize this infraction, the offending team member must be one of the five players currently in the game.

Nope. #15 committed a foul. My crew and I have definite knowledge that #15 committed a foul and we want that foul properly recorded in the book. Would do the same if #15 scored and the crew and/or scorer had definite knowledge that #15 scored a point, then #15 is going in the book and a T is being administered.

The T is for adding a name to or changing a number in the book. If #15 did something that needs to be recorded in the book then there is going to be a T administered.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Nope. #15 committed a foul. My crew and I have definite knowledge that #15 committed a foul and we want that foul properly recorded in the book. Would do the same if #15 scored and the crew and/or scorer had definite knowledge that #15 scored a point, then #15 is going in the book and a T is being administered.

FWIW, I agree with this.