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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 11:00am
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Flopping

At our association meeting yesterday - senior trainer said that faking a foul such as a charge is a T. I am unable to find that in any reading I do. Is it?
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 11:04am
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Originally Posted by Refsmitty View Post
At our association meeting yesterday - senior trainer said that faking a foul such as a charge is a T. I am unable to find that in any reading I do. Is it?
See Rule 10, Section 3, Article 6 f.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 11:06am
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Originally Posted by Refsmitty View Post
At our association meeting yesterday - senior trainer said that faking a foul such as a charge is a T. I am unable to find that in any reading I do. Is it?
Before ruling that a flop is a T, ask the senior trainer how many times he's ruled that way.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 11:28am
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Unless the dribbler is a few steps away when the defender acts like he got clobbered, that's a hard T to justify.

I think FIBA is a bit stricter in this area.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 11:36am
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Yeah, ask him

+1 Like a middle school ref cautioned our kids the other day AFTER a game not to throw the ball wildly up in the air after the buzzer in a very close game and for team not to run off bench and wildly celebrate the win...he tells 'em he could call a T for excessive celebration even after time expired. I just had to ask him..."would you really call that...REALLY...have you ever called that?"
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 11:43am
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I've called it once, after a warning, when the player fell back screaming with the opponent six feet away, in an elementary YMCA game.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 12:40pm
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Not Wanting to Stir the Pot, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tref View Post
Before ruling that a flop is a T, ask the senior trainer how many times he's ruled that way.
And how would his response help to make a decision on whether to give out a technical foul for a "flop"?

I think I know what you mean--that discretion is called for before dishing out a technical foul for "faking being fouled." No quarrel with that. I've only called it once that I can remember. And yes, it was merited.

A problem exists, however, if the basis for that discretion, knowledge of the rule, is lacking. Or if whether or not to make a call is dependent upon how often other officials say they've made that call. That's not any sort of basis from which to exercise judgment.

The number of times a senior trainer has or has not called something doesn't serve as much of a basis for when "faking being fouled" really should be called.

Not intending to be a butt-head about it, please don't misunderstand. I'm just a soul whose intentions are good...

Alternative opinions welcome...
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 01:02pm
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Originally Posted by letemplay View Post
...he tells 'em he could call a T for excessive celebration even after time expired.
He'd be wrong. There's nothing in the rule book for excessive celebration.

Baiting, taunting, disrespectul addressing, yes. Celebrating, no.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 01:13pm
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Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Unless the dribbler is a few steps away when the defender acts like he got clobbered, that's a hard T to justify.

I think FIBA is a bit stricter in this area.
Yes, they are.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 01:41pm
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Interesting

I had a very nice preseason scrimmage this year in my state between two teams that went a long way in the tournament last year. During the scrimmage I had brush contact by the driver and the defender fell back. As the ball went throught the hoop, I gave him the old "get up" sign, it was a lame attempt to draw a charge. If the defender had not fallen, there would be no call, and if there offensive player missed the shot, there would be no complaint either. However....

One of my partners after the scrimmage said the head of officials in my state said at the state meeting (which he didn't say on the on-line meeting BTW), "that if the defender falls, every time he wants a call made, either a block, charge, or T."

It's just another symptom of rules makers these days in my judgment. Everyone has to have 'my' judgment, call everything in a certain way, and be a clone with your signals. My view of how the play is means nothing. If they don't weant defenders trying to get charges, then make a rule saying 'every drive to the basket that has contract with the driver/shooter is a block.' End of problem.

So I guess right now, unless the kid is a total rock as he takes contact and is set up six steps from the driver, I'm just calling it a block. Rah.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 02:11pm
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Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
I had a very nice preseason scrimmage this year in my state between two teams that went a long way in the tournament last year. During the scrimmage I had brush contact by the driver and the defender fell back. As the ball went throught the hoop, I gave him the old "get up" sign, it was a lame attempt to draw a charge. If the defender had not fallen, there would be no call, and if there offensive player missed the shot, there would be no complaint either. However....

One of my partners after the scrimmage said the head of officials in my state said at the state meeting (which he didn't say on the on-line meeting BTW), "that if the defender falls, every time he wants a call made, either a block, charge, or T."

It's just another symptom of rules makers these days in my judgment. Everyone has to have 'my' judgment, call everything in a certain way, and be a clone with your signals. My view of how the play is means nothing. If they don't weant defenders trying to get charges, then make a rule saying 'every drive to the basket that has contract with the driver/shooter is a block.' End of problem.

So I guess right now, unless the kid is a total rock as he takes contact and is set up six steps from the driver, I'm just calling it a block. Rah.
Your head of officials is trying to get consistency.That is their job. You might like the control of 'my' judgement. But, the problem is that "my" judgement is rarely the same as 'his" judgement or "her' judgement. So, the only way to get consistency on these kinds of plays is to have clear directives of what they want called. Otherwise, the teams will have no idea what to expect.

And you're right, your opinion on the matter doesn't matter....you're hired to call it as your hiring body wants it called.

And what they want is NOT what you imply. Defenders taking charges is fine...but if they end up on the floor, it is either a charge, a block, or a flop. Can't be much else. They don't want everything a block...they want to cut out the flopping. If the defender flops out of it, they want a call.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Dec 05, 2011 at 02:14pm.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2011, 03:52pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
They don't want everything a block...they want to cut out the flopping. If the defender flops out of it, they want a call.
I very much like the idea of trying to cut out the flopping. One caveat...if the defensive players are asked (by threat of T and automatic block calls) not to flop and to try and stay on their feet, then an official should be ready and willing to call a charge, when warranted, even if the defender does stay up.
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Old Tue Dec 06, 2011, 10:09am
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Originally Posted by jkumpire View Post
One of my partners after the scrimmage said the head of officials in my state said at the state meeting (which he didn't say on the on-line meeting BTW), "that if the defender falls, every time he wants a call made, either a block, charge, or T."
What happened to "incidental contact"?
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