Flopping

[MOofficial]

In my game tonight I had 3 flops, all called blocks. One on Team A and two on Team B (Same player on both) On the first one called on Team B I talked to the coach about why I've called them blocks. Here is what I basically said:

I told the coach I called the same thing on Team A and the reason I call the flop a block is so when it gets to the 4th quarter and in a close game and I've called the flop all game a block the players will understand if they are goign to take a charge it better be a good one instead of putting it on my shoulders to judge a flop or a charge. Coach agreed with that statement and on the second flop I called, which was in the 4th quarter and oh ya a kids 5th foul and his second time getting called for it and the coach chewed his kid a good one.

Just wanting opinions if this is a good way to go about calling the flop, or should I have a no call or what. Just want some different philosophies on the play. I guess I could call it a T like the rule book states.

[shishstripes]

If a player is falling before contact and then there is contact, I call a block. If there is no contact, tell player and coach flopping is a technical foul. Next time that team does it, whack them.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

If a player is falling before contact and then there is contact, I call a block.

Had this argument last night. "He was falling down before my guy ever got there." Defender has LGP. Dribbler headed straight into him. Defender leans away from the contact, but there is significant contact anyway. PC foul.

[mutantducky]

I might give a warning first and on some questionable ones let it go, but for sure give them a T if it continues. I saw it called by a ref once and it does work. Why coaches teach their players to act like soccer(football) players is beyond me.

But Divac had some great flopping moves and fulled many a ref. Heck, I would flop if I was guarding Shaq.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

If a player is falling before contact and then there is contact, I call a block. If there is no contact, tell player and coach flopping is a technical foul. Next time that team does it, whack them.

Not necessarily.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Had this argument last night. "He was falling down before my guy ever got there." Defender has LGP. Dribbler headed straight into him. Defender leans away from the contact, but there is significant contact anyway. PC foul.

Exactly!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by shishstripes

If a player is falling before contact and then there is contact, I call a block. If there is no contact, tell player and coach flopping is a technical foul. Next time that team does it, whack them.

You're completely wrong, by rule.

If a defender has LGP, the rules will not allow you to call a block on that defender. The only applicable calls would be a PC foul or a no call. The defender is also allowed to protect himself from the charge. There's nuthin' the matter with falling backwards before contact. See rule 4-23-3(e)-"The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact". The only thing that you judge if the defender had LGP is whether the actual contact was sufficient for a PC foul.

"Flopping" is defined as either having no contact or incidental contact. Iow, the defender is faking being fouled. That's why it's penalized as a technical foul under rule 10-3-7(f).

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You're completely wrong, by rule.

If a defender has LGP, the rules will not allow you to call a block on that defender. The only applicable calls would be a PC foul or a no call. The defender is also allowed to protect himself from the charge. There's nuthin' the matter with falling backwards before contact. See rule 4-23-3(e)-"The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact". The only thing that you judge if the defender had LGP is whether the actual contact was sufficient for a PC foul.

"Flopping" is defined as either having no contact or incidental contact. Iow, the defender is faking being fouled. That's why it's penalized as a technical foul under rule 10-3-7(f).

Would somebody mind breaking this one down a touch further for the yellow ball umpire who likes to intrude on your discussions? I thought to have LGP you had to be in position and be trying to guard your man, no? So a guy falling over backward couldn't have it?
________
Hand Blown Glass

[Adam]

Originally Posted by youngump

Would somebody mind breaking this one down a touch further for the yellow ball umpire who likes to intrude on your discussions? I thought to have LGP you had to be in position and be trying to guard your man, no? So a guy falling over backward couldn't have it?

Guarding can mean maintaining a spot on the floor to prevent the offense from legally advancing. In this situation, you don't lose that legal position just because you flinch to absorb contact.

Can you define "trying to guard your man"?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by youngump

I thought to have LGP you had to be in position and be trying to guard your man, no? So a guy falling over backward couldn't have it?

To establish LGP the defensive player must have both feet touching the floor and the front of the torso facing the opponent. Leaning back does not make the player lose LGP.

Also, in the play in question, LGP may not even be an issue. The defender may have turned to face the basket, anticipating a shot, positioning himself for the rebound. Instead the offensive player has made a move to the basket. Even though the defender may now have his back to the dribbler, he is still entitled to his spot on the floor. Now this defender looks over his shoulder to see his opponent flying in his direction going for the dunk. Defender instinctively steps forward, away from the contact. Shooter lands on top of him. No basket. PC foul.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Guarding can mean maintaining a spot on the floor to prevent the offense from legally advancing. In this situation, you don't lose that legal position just because you flinch to absorb contact.

Can you define "trying to guard your man"?

No, I definitely can't. But I'm not talking about flinching. The way I visualized the comment from a few posts ago was a player who was standing to take a charge and then anticipating the driving player stopping before make contact fakes a fall backward all the way to the floor. On his way down he is run over. My question then is, does that qualify as legally preventing the offense from advancing.
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Weed Bubblers

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a defender has LGP,

Has and maintains...

Often, though, the flopper fails to maintain LGP, and a block can be the correct call.

[shishstripes]

Flopping in my opinion is never an attempt on their part to absorb contact and I don't believe that the motion of flopping is an attempt to maintain LGP either. I am not asking the defender to "stand in there like a man", but do not flop. And if there is no contact better get ready for a T.

Here is why I don't feel the defender is maintaining LGP. If a defender in LGP, were then to lean their shoulder out (beyond their normal frame) into a dribbler's path and there is contact, you have a block. I think of this as similar.

To use the idea of the defender turning around, that is totally different. This player is flopping and it is frowned on by the rules.

[deecee]

a defender shouldnt be punished because he braces for impact and leans away to protect himself. the contact was going to be inevitable and in some cases painful :|

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Has and maintains...

Often, though, the flopper fails to maintain LGP, and a block can be the correct call.

I see both side of the string buring here. However, how does one lose LGP? Please clarify

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by just another ref

To establish LGP the defensive player must have both feet touching the floor and the front of the torso facing the opponent. Leaning back does not make the player lose LGP.

Also, in the play in question, LGP may not even be an issue. The defender may have turned to face the basket, anticipating a shot, positioning himself for the rebound. Instead the offensive player has made a move to the basket. Even though the defender may now have his back to the dribbler, he is still entitled to his spot on the floor. Now this defender looks over his shoulder to see his opponent flying in his direction going for the dunk. Defender instinctively steps forward, away from the contact. Shooter lands on top of him. No basket. PC foul.

Leaning backwards is not LGP???? there is nothing about not leaning back in establishing LGP or standing 100% vertical with feet flat..

If the player has established LGP and leans back, the player still may get a charge, player is fding back to not take it and the airborne shooter still puts a knee in the chest its a charge...