The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 12:12pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,191
Seems to me the NCAA rule quoted by rut (using "caused") is different than the high school rule last to touch.)
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 12:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Seems to me the NCAA rule quoted by rut (using "caused") is different than the high school rule last to touch.)
I don't think it's functionally different. The violation is still first to touch. Instead of last to touch we have caused to go. I think who ever touched it last in the front court is the one who caused it to go to the back court. However, I'm strictly a NFHS guy, so I could be wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 12:26pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastshire View Post
I don't think it's functionally different. The violation is still first to touch. Instead of last to touch we have caused to go. I think who ever touched it last in the front court is the one who caused it to go to the back court. However, I'm strictly a NFHS guy, so I could be wrong.
I do not see it as much different and I cannot find a Case play that suggests it is ruled totally different. My point was if a player touches the ball with feet in the BC, the ball is now in the BC, especially during a dribble. If the Duke player touched the ball before the OSU player did, then that is not a violation. But that is not my contention on this play either.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 12:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Cameron,

I am still trying to figure out what I said was wrong. If you are touching the backcourt the ball is in the backcourt as a ball handler right. If the player took the ball to the backcourt, that is a violation if they were in possession of the ball or touching the ball in the FC first, which would have been the only way this was a violation in this play.

This is the NCAA Rule:
Section 12. Ball in Back Court

Art. 1. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in his or her back court (with any part of his or her body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the front court while the player’s team was in team control and the player or a teammate caused the ball to go into the back court.

The question for me was always if TC ended with the OSU team and the Duke player took it over. Or if Duke player simply tipped the ball away then the OSU player was already in the BC, then that would not be a violation if they contacted the ball. And if it was so close to not tell, that is why I feel it probably was not called. But it looked to me like the OSU player might have taken the ball to the BC. I guess I do not see that as what we typically call a first to touch, last to touch situation as the issue is not who was first and last, the ball had FC status, then BC status by the player in control of the ball. Just like a player that is being trapped near the division line and steps into the BC or on the division line.

Peace
The phrase in the NCAA rule about causing the ball to GO into the backcourt is the equivalent to last to touch. It is not the same as causing the ball to BE OOB...which occurs when they are touched by the ball. The defensive player who deflected it towards the backcourt is the one who caused to ball to GO to the backcourt. Your statement about a player who was in the backcourt and touched by the ball is only a violation if a teamate was the one to deflected/passed/touched the ball causing it to GO to the backcourt.


I agree with everything you said in the 2nd paragraph....and they are all last to touch, first to touch situations. The backcourt rule simply revolves around the very moment the gains backcourt status and who touched it just before that moment and who touches it just after that moment...even if it is the same touch.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
  #50 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 12:43pm
Archaic Power Monger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
If the Duke player touched the ball before the OSU player did, then that is not a violation.
Thank you for clarifying, I agree with you.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 12:50pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The phrase in the NCAA rule about causing the ball to GO into the backcourt is the equivalent to last to touch. It is not the same as causing the ball to BE OOB...which occurs when they are touched by the ball. The defensive player who deflected it towards the backcourt is the one who caused to ball to GO to the backcourt. Your statement about a player who was in the backcourt and touched by the ball is only a violation if a teamate was the one to deflected/passed/touched the ball causing it to GO to the backcourt.
I do not recall me saying that this was automatically a violation. I was simplying saying that the ball has BC status now. That has other ramifications as to if you have a new count or where can the player go. Who caused to be back there was not simply about if it was a violation. Actually I was unsure (and still unsure) if the player contacted the ball in the FC then stepped into the BC and that would be a violation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I agree with everything you said in the 2nd paragraph....and they are all last to touch, first to touch situations. The backcourt rule simply revolves around the very moment the gains backcourt status and who touched it just before that moment and who touches it just after that moment...even if it is the same touch.
OK, I disagree with the first and last to touch part or what it actually means, but I see your point. I think that is semantics but then again the NCAA Rules wording is a little different.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 03:14pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The phrase in the NCAA rule about causing the ball to GO into the backcourt is the equivalent to last to touch. It is not the same as causing the ball to BE OOB...which occurs when they are touched by the ball. The defensive player who deflected it towards the backcourt is the one who caused to ball to GO to the backcourt. Your statement about a player who was in the backcourt and touched by the ball is only a violation if a teamate was the one to deflected/passed/touched the ball causing it to GO to the backcourt.

....
In the Duke/OSU play how did the defender cause the ball to go to the backcourt? The ball itself never reached the backcourt. It only attained that status when the OSU player touched the ball.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 04:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
In the Duke/OSU play how did the defender cause the ball to go to the backcourt? The ball itself never reached the backcourt. It only attained that status when the OSU player touched the ball.
And that player was in the backcourt.

"Cause" in this situation is not the same "cause" as is used in the OOB situation (where "cause" is clearly defined to include touching a player who is OOB).

"Cause" in the backcourt situation is the same as last to touch the ball before the moment before it touched or was touched by a player or the floor in the backcourt. "Cause" in this context is the player who sent the ball to the backcourt....not the one it touched at the end of the play.

The OSU player didn't cause the ball to come to him when he touched it...the Duke player caused it to be there.

Another way to look at it....Causing to GO vs. causing to BE. It is not a violation for a team to cause the ball to BE in the backcourt unless they also caused it to go into the backcourt and are the first to touch the ball after it does do.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com

Last edited by Camron Rust; Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 04:26pm.
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 04:40pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 13,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
...
The OSU player didn't cause the ball to come to him when he touched it...the Duke player caused it to be there.

....
The Duke player caused the ball to be where?

I know what you are saying but I'm really just playing a game of semantics b/c quite often folks here have a condescending attitude towards anybody who understands the "Struckoff" interpretation of the play as if we're a bunch of idiots.

The wording of the backcourt rules could be tweeked to eliminate any chance of debate, but then folks would be offended because when they see a rule one way and one way only anybody who comes up a possible alternative interpration is also an idiot who now wants the entire rule book re-written for their own benefit.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 04:55pm.
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 05:16pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
The Duke player caused the ball to be where?

I know what you are saying but I'm really just playing a game of semantics b/c quite often folks here have a condescending attitude towards anybody who understands the "Struckoff" interpretation of the play as if we're a bunch of idiots.

The wording of the backcourt rules could be tweeked to eliminate any chance of debate, but then folks would be offended because when they see a rule one way and one way only anybody who comes up a possible alternative interpration is also an idiot who now wants the entire rule book re-written for their own benefit.
Causing in this situation is the same as the last person to touch the ball BEFORE it gained backcourt status. Since it gained backcourt status the moment it was touched by the OSU player, you have to determine who was the last person to touch it before that point....the Duke player. That player caused it to go into the backcourt.

Simply but, there is nothing to understand about the Struckoff interp....it is fundamentally contrary to the written rule and has never been called that way. There is no possible way to twist it such that it makes sense...an event that happens before a point in time and an event that happens after a point in time can't be the same event. It defies basic logic. They are two separate events. Her interpretation has declared one event to both be before AND after a point in time.

The rule could certainly be rewritten so support her interpretation, but in its current form, it can not result in that interpretation.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com

Last edited by Camron Rust; Thu Dec 01, 2011 at 05:19pm.
Reply With Quote
  #56 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 05:30pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,308
For the record I do not care about the Struckoff interpretation. This was a college game with NCAA Rules. She does not control the Men's side and never did. I was not even thinking of her NF Interpretation anyway.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 05:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Mary Struckoff would tell you this is a violation.
Who?
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #58 (permalink)  
Old Thu Dec 01, 2011, 06:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 11,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
For the record I do not care about the Struckoff interpretation. This was a college game with NCAA Rules. She does not control the Men's side and never did. I was not even thinking of her NF Interpretation anyway.

Peace
Agree....but others were bringing it into the discussion.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A new request rainmaker Basketball 4 Thu Mar 02, 2006 01:07pm
I have a request The Ref of OZ!!! Football 9 Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:49pm
Appropriate help request? insatty Baseball 9 Wed May 28, 2003 01:27pm
Help request Ladybirdsho Swimming/Diving 0 Tue Nov 26, 2002 08:57am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:52pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1