Appropriate help request?

[insatty]

R3 breaks for home upon a slow chopper between F1 and 3B-HP baseline. F1 fields ball on the run toward R3 and attempts a tag on R3's back. PU on 1B-line extended can see that F1's glove is very close to R3's back but is screened from seeing a tag. After R3 crosses plate but before PU makes a call asks BU in position C, "Do you have a tag?" BU says "yes" and PU calls R3 out on the tag.

Is this an appropriate request for help in order to get the call correct or an absolute mechanical no-no?

[David B]

Originally posted by insatty
or an absolute mechanical no-no?

I don't really think that there is such a thing as an "absolute" no no; however, if PU thought that the BU has a very good angle to ask is not bad.

Many umpires will say that's my call and I've got to make it, but by not making the call and quickly asking for help he did not interfere with play just in case there might be a subsequent throw etc.,

We are seeing this more and more even in MLB where there is pressure on them to ask for help on different situations.

I would say its better to get the play right. However, PU if he was hustling should have been able to see the tag.

I would probably not ask for help unless I'm pretty sure that he tagged him and I didn't see it.

Thanks
David

[jicecone]

"However, PU if he was hustling should have been able to see the tag."

What was the plate umpire suppose to do run up the line then back in position at the plate? The PU was at 1B extended and couldn't see, if he had been at 3b extended as he should have, he would have seen less. Sometimes no matter how much you hustle, your not going to see everything. Asking for help in those situation is just plain good officiating.

Some officials believe that under any circumstance, they should make the call and asking for help is a sign of weakness. They keep forgetting that the officials on the field are the third TEAM, that should be working together.

Did you notice, "There is no I in TEAM."

[chris s]

I am from the school of "work on getting your own calls", but, as I go over with pards in pre-game, if ya need help, ask before you make a call. In this case, perfect. Don't ask safe or out, rather(as in this case) did he tag him? then the ump asking makes the safe/out.

[Bfair]

PU's got to make the call here.
BU may just as easily have been screened by the play as apparently PU was.
There is no guarantee that partner has a better angle (like that available when getting help on a pulled foot at 1B) .

With the ball hit where it was, it's a very risky play for R3---and likely a poor decision---to be breaking to the plate. His poor decision loses him the benefit of the doubt. When they take questionable risks they better clearly win.

If the play beats the runner, he's out until a definite miss is seen.
If the tag occurs near to home plate, then the PU should have adjusted to the play to achieve a better angle on the tag. He shouldn't be pushing this call off on the BU. He might be able to gain a little help by slowing his timing and reading the reaction of F1 or R3---but PU has to make this call.

What does this PU do if he's BU and gets screened on a swipe tag at 2B?
(Remembrances of a WS swipe tag on a runner going to 2B.....)
Does he turn to his PU for help............?????
Sometimes you just have to make the call---right or wrong.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[jicecone]

"Sometimes you just have to make the call---right or wrong."

I disagree. What is this ego thing in the world of officiating, that people feel that an official HAS to make a call if he hasn't seen enough information for him to make a clear decision. Get the dang thing right. When one official looks bad in a contest ,they all look bad.

"What does this PU do if he's BU and gets screened on a swipe tag at 2B?
(Remembrances of a WS swipe tag on a runner going to 2B.....)
Does he turn to his PU for help............?????"

Of course not but, if he did , What is the big deal?

Are we really that macho driven that admitting error, is above and beyond us. Im sorry, Im not from that school.

[David B]

I see your point and I agree totally that sometimes its okay to ask for help.

However, I still contend that if there is a tag play up the line, then PU has no business at FBLE.

All he has to do it drop step a few steps and move left and he should be able to see the tag.

The rest of my opinion was stated above.

Thanks
David

Originally posted by Bfair
PU's got to make the call here.
BU may just as easily have been screened by the play as apparently PU was.
There is no guarantee that partner has a better angle (like that available when getting help on a pulled foot at 1B) .

With the ball hit where it was, it's a very risky play for R3---and likely a poor decision---to be breaking to the plate. His poor decision loses him the benefit of the doubt. When they take questionable risks they better clearly win.

If the play beats the runner, he's out until a definite miss is seen.
If the tag occurs near to home plate, then the PU should have adjusted to the play to achieve a better angle on the tag. He shouldn't be pushing this call off on the BU. He might be able to gain a little help by slowing his timing and reading the reaction of F1 or R3---but PU has to make this call.

What does this PU do if he's BU and gets screened on a swipe tag at 2B?
(Remembrances of a WS swipe tag on a runner going to 2B.....)
Does he turn to his PU for help............?????
Sometimes you just have to make the call---right or wrong.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[insatty]

David:

Your wrong about your assertion that the "PU has no business at FBLE." The Umpire's Manual instructs experienced umpires to start at point-of-plate extended and read the throw. If you have a throw from infielder to plate, then throw will likely be on target and F2 will likely block plate, making FBLE appropriate. If throw is from outfield and will likely take F2 away from plate, swipe tag is more likely making TBLE appropriate. The manual instructs less experienced umpires to use FBLE as default position for all plate plays.

In the play here, while F1 fielded ball F2 was setting up at plate to take throw and block plate. Thus FBLE is crucial to PU's optimum angle.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by jicecone
"However, PU if he was hustling should have been able to see the tag."

What was the plate umpire suppose to do run up the line

YES. Absolutely.

then back in position at the plate?

Probably not. How many outs will he call on this play? All umpires should be closing in on the location of the activity. It's not a big stretch for an umpire to assume there will be a tag attempt. Get ready for it.

If the tag was missed, there might be a play at the plate, and likely a collision. Perhaps an easier more obvious call and one that the umpire could close-in on to sell.

The PU was at 1B extended and couldn't see, if he had been at 3b extended as he should have, he would have seen less.

Yes, nearly impossible to see a swipe tag from 3B extended and I saw that this mechanic was covered in last month's Referee magazine; not sure why it would seem applicable for this scenario. My point for either one of these positions would be that standing in a particular position waiting for the play to come to you is wrong. Both of these positions still require the umpire to close in on the play making the appropriate angle for a good look at the play when it ocurs.

Sometimes no matter how much you hustle, your not going to see everything. Asking for help in those situation is just plain good officiating.

Again, absolutely right. But did the plate umpire make the requisite hustle? If he didn't move up the line toward this potential collision, tag, fumble, interference, obstruction... then I would say NO, HE DID NOT MAKE THE APPROPRIATE HUSTLE.

Some officials believe that under any circumstance, they should make the call and asking for help is a sign of weakness. They keep forgetting that the officials on the field are the third TEAM, that should be working together.

Again, absolutely right. This is surely a Had To Be There scenario. Perhaps the BU was moving toward the play. This would keep me away. Two umpires have a large field to cover; if they are both collapsing within 20 feet of one play, who is watching the rest of the diamond for that intentional obstruction or missed base?

And as you all know there are times when the activities are so new or unusual that we just freeze.

Sounds like overall the umpires covered this scenario well, and the necessary calls was made, if there was a tag made... and that is our job.
[/B]

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on May 28th, 2003 at 01:23 PM]

[David B]

I agree that's what the manuals say; however, experience is the teacher.

PU may begin at FBLE and then as the throw comes and he sees the slide PU would need to move left or right in order to see the tag.

Bottom line is PU was at FBLE and did NOT see the tag.

Thus, he did not do something to adjust to the play.

I misread the original post, I thought that the runner was standing up on and the tag was away from the plate.

So I must amend my original opinion.

This is totally PU's call. I would never ask for help on this type of play.

Sorry for the confusion.

My original post about positioning was for a play in which the runner is standing up and there is a swipe tag attempt or a run-down situation.

Thanks
David

Originally posted by insatty
David:

Your wrong about your assertion that the "PU has no business at FBLE." The Umpire's Manual instructs experienced umpires to start at point-of-plate extended and read the throw. If you have a throw from infielder to plate, then throw will likely be on target and F2 will likely block plate, making FBLE appropriate. If throw is from outfield and will likely take F2 away from plate, swipe tag is more likely making TBLE appropriate. The manual instructs less experienced umpires to use FBLE as default position for all plate plays.

In the play here, while F1 fielded ball F2 was setting up at plate to take throw and block plate. Thus FBLE is crucial to PU's optimum angle.