Call what you see... or what you think happened

[NWRef]

Took in a BV A-4 playoff game yesterday and saw the following play. This was a two whistle game.

A-1 is dribbling from the area left of the key and above the 3 pt arc and beginning to drive towards the hoop. T is on the same side of floor but well behind A-1. L has worked his way up under the basket as play comes his way.

As A-1 crosses the key enroute to the basket B-1 (whose movement is screened from L by players) moves out and bellybumps A-1 knocking him off track. L blows the whistle and calls a travel. Judging from the angle, I am sure the lead could not have seen B-1's movement and action, all he saw was the reroute of a-1 with the ball not being dribbled.

He received no help or imput from the T. He made the call and even though there was a fair amount imput from A-1's coach the call stood and away they went.

Anyway it got me to thinking, I know in 2 whistle in particular, you can't be everywhere and see everything all the time. I've had situations where as trail you'll get straight lined and see a player reach around a dribbler and then the ball is re routed. All you see is butts and backs but you know something had to have happened to reroute the ball. With all the age and wisdom on this board, what are your thoughts?? How do you guys handle situations like this?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by NWRef
I've had situations where as trail you'll get straight lined and see a player reach around a dribbler and then the ball is re routed. All you see is butts and backs but you know something had to have happened to reroute the ball.

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was from my first camp. Do not call what you do not see. Don't ever guess! All your missed calls should be no-calls.

In your situation, the Lead did what he had to do. He saw the player move his pivot foot without dribbling. That's a travel. If the Trail doesn't come in and call the foul first, oh well. Nobody saw the bump. It happens.

Now, you can rip the Lead for being out of position, for being stuck behind the backboard. But you can't rip him for NOT calling what he didn't see.

Chuck

[rockyroad]

And you can rip the T for not moving his butt to get into a position to see the play...if the drive started in his area, he needs to take it all the way to the hoop...I know that was stressed the last two years in the WIAA clinics around the state...

[donj]

My philosophy that I try to follow is, if you don't see it, don't call it. NEVER GUESS. It's almost better to have a no call in these situations sometimes. No matter what happens, the officials are going to get screamed at. But, maybe what the lead official should have done was to have talked to his partner and asked if he maybe saw something he didn't. Maybe an inadvertant whistle could have been called. Then again, maybe I needed to have been there to see the play.

[NWRef]

Donj: "But, maybe what the lead official should have done was to have talked to his partner and asked if he maybe saw something he didn't."

**There wasn't a double whistle and it didn't look like there was much non-verbal communication between the partners either. In our area they pull officials from different districts in to do the games. Odds are these two guys had never worked together before

"rockyroad: And you can rip the T for not moving his butt to get into a position to see the play...if the drive started in his area, he needs to take it all the way to the hoop.. "

** I agree, the angle from the stands I had was roughly the same as the trail as I could see past his shoulder. He should have had as clear a view of the bump as I did....and A-1's coach as well

[Edited by NWRef on Mar 7th, 2003 at 01:04 PM]

[ROMANO]

"..IN MOST OF THE TIMES NO CALL IS THE BEST CALL"..

[JRutledge]

I totally agree in thoery you should not call things you do not see. I agree that in a 2 person game it can be even more difficult to call many things with so much to cover. But I will say this. You will call things you do not see all the time. Or at least not see the entire play. You might see the very end and have to make a split second decision of what actually happen. So in other you might see a player get completely knocked to the floor and not see how they got there completely. But in a 2 person game, you might have to make some kind of call anyway. In 3 Person it is much easier to see everything from the beginning to the end. In 2 Person you might see the "second action" and not the first and have to make a call. It is just one of those flaws with the 2 Person system.

I do not know if anyone does baseball here, but even with 2 umpires you will have to make some sacrifices and make a call one way or another. The It is obviously more ideal to have 4 umpires who can cover the field much better, but when there is only two of you, you have to make the best of a not so great situation.


Peace

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I do not know if anyone does baseball here, but even with 2 umpires you will have to make some sacrifices and make a call one way or another. The It is obviously more ideal to have 4 umpires who can cover the field much better, but when there is only two of you, you have to make the best of a not so great situation.
Peace

Rut,
The baseball metaphor is not totally applicable, because, as you know, with argumentative baseball players it's very acceptable and usually expected to go to another umpire, while in hoops, though it is acceptable, it is not necessarily expected that you ask a partner.
Different strokes for different folks....
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I totally agree in thoery you should not call things you do not see. I agree that in a 2 person game it can be even more difficult to call many things with so much to cover. But I will say this. You will call things you do not see all the time. Or at least not see the entire play. You might see the very end and have to make a split second decision of what actually happen.

Peace

While kinda off-topic, I agree 100% with Rut on this. There is an element of "educated guessing" in 2-man when you're working a fast, competetive game, simply because there's too much happening at once. Not always, not most of the time, but occasionally you need to reconstruct what "might" have happened when making a call.

In the original sitch, if the T did not have a whistle there's no way he can help the L on this. As for not being in position, well, it happens in 2 man. Maybe this was one of those times where a good "guess" would have lead to the right call.

[JRutledge]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Originally posted by JRutledge


Rut,
The baseball metaphor is not totally applicable, because, as you know, with argumentative baseball players it's very acceptable and usually expected to go to another umpire, while in hoops, though it is acceptable, it is not necessarily expected that you ask a partner.
Different strokes for different folks....
mick

I think Dan got the essence of what I was trying to say overall.

But even in baseball, I am not going to my partner on many calls. I have to live and die with it because of where he is located and what was going on in his own area. You know if I was the base umpire and there is a play at second base with runners ahead of second coming home and the ball gets thrown to second base, that is my call all the way. My partner cannot help me on a tag or no tag sitaution. He just cannot.

Peace

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I think Dan got the essence of what I was trying to say overall.

But even in baseball, I am not going to my partner on many calls. I have to live and die with it because of where he is located and what was going on in his own area. You know if I was the base umpire and there is a play at second base with runners ahead of second coming home and the ball gets thrown to second base, that is my call all the way. My partner cannot help me on a tag or no tag sitaution. He just cannot.

Peace

YU.P., yU.P.

[Adam]

Okay, in my AAU game yesterday, had a girl get poked in the eye. I didn't see it. I'm lead, opposite the benches, in the front court. Ball is on the baseline, benchside, and B1 is actively waving her arms to prevent a pass.
Next thing I know, A1 is crying and holding her eye.
Now, I'm pretty sure that B1 got her hand in there and poked her in the eye, but I didn't see it.
Should I have called it? Or just whistle an injury time-out and take the heat for a no-call?

Adam

[mick]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Okay, in my AAU game yesterday, had a girl get poked in the eye. I didn't see it. I'm lead, opposite the benches, in the front court. Ball is on the baseline, benchside, and B1 is actively waving her arms to prevent a pass.
Next thing I know, A1 is crying and holding her eye.
Now, I'm pretty sure that B1 got her hand in there and poked her in the eye, but I didn't see it.
Should I have called it? Or just whistle an injury time-out and take the heat for a no-call?

Adam

Tough call.
Be willing to live with your decision.
I have blown more whistles for someone holding their face, than I have for someone hitting a face.

[Adam]

I had an explanation ready, but didn't need it. Coach seems to have been pretty smart, and must have known my dilemma, because he didn't question my no-call. BTW, same coach who my partner nearly T-d for asking him to hustle. Coach only questioned me once, and I subtly reminded him that I had pretty good position (on an OOB call). Not a single complaint the rest of the game towards me. Of course, his team was in the middle of a successful comeback.
Now, did he win because he focused on coaching, or did he refrain from complaining because he was winning? Chicken, or egg?

Adam

[JRutledge]

Just because a player got poked into their eye, does not mean it was a foul that caused that.

If you saw the NC/Duke game, I did not think that was a foul. But that is just my opinion.

Peace