Call what you see... or what you think happened

[Rich]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Well in Boy's games, players flop all the time. So you better be sure in those games something took place before you call "phantom" calls. Or you might be doing girl's ball all the time.

Peace

That's obnoxious, Rut. We call both boys and girls where I'm from. The girls' games are not given to "lesser" officials.

Rich

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser



That's obnoxious, Rut. We call both boys and girls where I'm from. The girls' games are not given to "lesser" officials.

Rich

Good for you. In my parts assignors to not schedule officials to both in most situations. The games are different and the expectations from the coaches and players are completely different. What was discribed sounded like a "girl's call" to me. But if you are calling contact just to be calling contact, then "Girl's games" is all you will be calling. Sorry, but the truth. The reason you do not see NCAA Officials switching back and forth. The games are not the same.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
That's obnoxious, Rut. We call both boys and girls where I'm from. The girls' games are not given to "lesser" officials.

Rich, we do both boys and girls games here as well. But the only reason is that it was strongly suggested to the boys officials that we would do both, or our boys schedules would suffer.

You mention "where I'm from", and I think that's a big caveat. Around here, girls ball is pretty poor. In parts of PA, from what I understand, girls ball is outstanding. But "where I'm from", I concur with Jeff. Almost nobody who aspires to officiating high-level basketball wants to work girls games. Two average JV boys officials could handle most of the girls varsity games around here.

Chuck

[Rich]

I'm from Wisconsin, where boys games or girls games have the potential to be rather good or rather poor depending on the teams. I enjoy a good girls game more than a lousy boys game.

Our games are assigned by athletic directors (nonconference) and league commissioners. The commissioners here assign both boys and girls games and typically most people here work both. I do know some officials who only seek out boys games, but they are definitely in the minority. Our contracts typically contain both boys and girls games.

On retrospect, I'm sorry I posted the play I did. I post using my name and well, I don't want to get the reputation as something as horrible (HORRIBLE!) as a girls ref. I don't know how I'll sleep tonight without some NyQuil and a brown pop or ten

The boys varsity games are frequently the eaaaaasiest to call anyway. The kids are simply more athletic and when there's a foul everyone in the gym knows it, for the most part. But that's a topic for another day.

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Mar 11th, 2003 at 09:47 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


If having to guess on one call in an entire season makes me a "girl's official" in Rut's mind, so be it. In that instance I think it was the proper thing to do as the ends certainly implied the means. I don't have the luxury of working 3-whistle and I work as hard as I can to be in the best position I can.

Rich

Your example did not even fit the play that happen in the Duke/North Carolina game. These situations were not even close to the same. And yes to me (not that it means anything) the play you gave an example for was rather shallow to explain your point. And yes to me, the play you gave sounded like a girl's foul explaination. Because if you call something just because they fell down in a boy's game or Men's college game, the coaches and evaluators are going to have you for lunch. And I have done Men's and Women's college basketball games in Wisconsin, they expect different things from those sides of the ball. And on the boy's or Men's side of the ball, they do a whole lot of flopping, acting like they got hit or contacted when basically nothing happen. And if you are not ready for that, they will have you calling all kinds of stuff. So you better by sure you saw some contact, rather than calling something that looked like contact. Because in many loose ball situations, players run into each other and sometimes get hurt, and no one fouled anyone. And in the original situation, it was not obvious that he was hit and he definitely was not hit on purpose. If the NC player would have kept standing, this would have never been an issue. But understand this is my opinion. I am sure others like yourself will disagree. Officiating is an art, not always an exact science. Judgement plays a huge part in what they do. If either of us were on the game, we would have to answer individuals why or why not we made a call.

Peace

[Rich]

I didn't even see the play in question. I was off on some tangent, which isn't unusual.

We don't disagree at all with our opinions on those that "flop." It is a boys game phenomonon, I agree. I'm not sure I've ever seen a varsity girl flop. It is rare that the person with the ball flops, though.

I wonder why girls don't flop.

I also do not believe that contact necessarily implies a foul. Sometimes contact can be quite violent, obvious to all, and not a foul. Basketball, unlike chess, is not a non-contact sport. I do understand that.

Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Mar 11th, 2003 at 10:14 PM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


I wonder why girls don't flop.

It is not taught and not ingrained in the minds of the players. Boy's start this crap in Junior High and some how think it helps them.

Girls seem to be more worried about dribbling at that age. Boys have a basketball in their cribs.

Peace

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by JRutledge

So what you are telling me, a ball handler can only fall as a result of something illegal from the defense? Please tell me you are not serious? If you are, you might need to see more plays. I see ball handlers all the time fall and the defenders were in legal guarding position and just standing there. Just because there is contact, does not mean anything illegal took place. Calling all contact a foul to me is an easy way out. If you did not see a play, do not just make something up. You might be totally wrong.

Peace

What I'm telling you is that I don't ever recall seeing the ballhandler FLOP. Period. I'm not implying anything beyond that, so please don't infer anything beyond that. OTOH, I will be the first to admit that I need to see more plays.

[Hawks Coach]

It is amazing how a couple of people can take a situation and fundamentally alter it to continue making their case. Rut, I never was talking about imagining contact. I have said that twice, but you continue down a tangent that now includes flopping to draw a call. A visible poke in the eye clearly is not a flop. Chuck turns this into a specific situation of a taller player turning her face into the hand of a shorter player with legal guarding position. That is also not what I was referring to.

I am refering to a situation in which the contact is initiated by the defender moving their arms, the contact is a clear and painful poke in the eye, and the ref says that accidental equals incidental contact.

As for ball handlers flopping, don't see it much. Plenty of shooters take the flop on the drive into the lane, and we have it in MS girls as well. But then again, our MS girls usually have several years of travel ball under their belts, so they are not still trying to learn how to dribble

My MS girls completely destroyed a MS boys team recently in a scrimmage. We had beaten them only slightly in a scrimmage two weeks earlier, mainly because we were intimidated by their rep at the outset and took half the game to get going. On this second outing, the boys went the first 5 minutes without a look at the basket, and saw few after that. We ran a lay-up drill on them, which was interrupted only by some quality jump shots, backdoor cuts, and power post moves in the half court offense. The funniest thing was watching my girls help the boys up and ask them if they were ok. I am sure the boys were better, just having an off day I guess.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
The funniest thing was watching my girls help the boys up and ask them if they were ok.

"Yep, I'm good. Landed on my ego...pretty sure it's only bruised."

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
I don't know how I'll sleep tonight without some NyQuil and a brown pop or ten

I'm pretty sure that one dose of NyQuil has the same alcohol content as a brown-pop, anyway. Tastes about the same, too. Blech.

The boys varsity games are frequently the eaaaaasiest to call anyway.

Then why do we use experienced officials for them? Why not put the new guys on the varsity games to get their feet wet on an easy game? Come on, Rich.

Chuck

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Coach, I agree with you. And I think (although I don't want to put words in his mouth) that Jeff would agree with you, too. But the incident in the Duke/UNC game -- which is what Jeff was referring to -- was not the kind of contact that you describe.

Chuck

Coach,I agree that the described action above is a foul.If you see it,it should be called,accidental or not.

Note that Chuck agreed with you too.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Chuck turns this into a specific situation of a taller player turning her face into the hand of a shorter player with legal guarding position. That is also not what I was referring to.

What, what, what?!?! I know, I know. It's Stan's mom who says that, not Kyle. But I couldn't find Stan's mom. But anyway. . .

Hawks Coach. . . you callin' me out? You takin' a poke? Heck, I don't mind being corrected when I'm wrong, but here's all I said about your "poke in the eye" situation.

Coach, I agree with you. And I think (although I don't want to put words in his mouth) that Jeff would agree with you, too. But the incident in the Duke/UNC game -- which is what Jeff was referring to -- was not the kind of contact that you describe.

Notice that the first thing I said was that I agree with you. If the official sees an accidental poke in the eye, especially if it results in a turnover, then it needs to be called a foul and not treated as incidental. I'm wit'choo, as my college roommate used to say.

All I was trying to point out was that the incident in the Duke game -- which Jeff had alluded to -- was a different sort of case from the one you brought up.

Friends?

Chuck

[ChuckElias]

You beat me JR, but only cuz I was looking for Stan's mom.

[Hawks Coach]

This is what happens when you try to remember vs checking on a long thread - it was MN3Sport not Chuck. Mea culpa - I accept a poke in the eye with a pointed stick.